whose job- tznius police

amother

Tue, May 21 2013, 1:17 pm

I am a seventh grade teacher, and I have students coming to school with skirts too close to the knee according the school standards. whose responsibility is it to "reprimand" them.

to tell you the honest truth- as a teacher I literally don't see the infractions- a student comes to school and I look at her a whole, not scrutitinizing her up and down to make sure she is dressed appropriately.

The princepal always has complaints against me as to why I am not "reprimanding" the girls and how come they dress teh way they do.

my thoughts are- if you are teh principal and you see it, say something- especially if it is going to create negatice feelings by the student, because my job is to develope a good relationship with them etc

whose job is it?

happybeingamom

Tue, May 21 2013, 1:27 pm

Since these girls are 7th graders you should be speaking to their mothers not to the girls. The girls do not buy their own clothing, they most likely don't take care of their clothing, check if it is the proper length etc. This is a parents responsibility.

Fighting with your students about something that is not in their control is a big mistake on many levels.

What I would do with the class. Talk to them about their growth spurt (a usual occurrence with 12-13 year old girls) and that they should check if their clothing still fit.

Simple1

Tue, May 21 2013, 1:33 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

They are old enough to be affected by peer pressure. So even if they are not buying their own clothing, they might pressure their harried mothers into letting them wear skirts that are too short. So while it might be helpful to talk to their mothers, it's also a good idea to address it to the girls directly.

amother

Tue, May 21 2013, 2:01 pm

Simple1 wrote:

OP, if you don't want to be known as the tznius police, you can tell a girl about her short skirt, but be apologetic about. Say something like: "I'm only telling you because I'm worried you'll get in trouble with the principal." I'm still not sure why the principal is criticizing you and how exactly she wants you to enforce the rules. Maybe you can discuss it with her.

the only thing im not sure about this approach is that she then may feel/think "if the principal isnt here then I dont need to be tzniyus"

maybe dont tzniyus "police" but be a tzniyus friend. Apologetically go to them and say "Sara, you probably didnt realize but your skirt seems to be a little shorter then is tzniyus today. Maybe check it out and see if you grew." Talk about tzniyus in general to the class. I def agree that you should bring up to them the idea or evaluating their clothing every so often since they are growing and their bodies are changing. (this goes for things being to short and to tight.)

I still remember from forth grade when I was sent to the principal for misbehaving for a substitute. After asking what had happened and why I was acting like that, My principal took out a laffy taffy (one of the old square ones) and opened it and said she wants to read me the joke. She "read" I am a wonderful girl who is so nice to everyone. I behave wonderfully and am refined and aidel. who am I? and then she read me the second "joke" on the wrapper. "I act wild and disrespectful. I am not a nice person. who am I?" then she told me that she knows im the first one and she hopes that I will show her that it is indeed the case. I started crying and she gave me the taffy and sent me back to class and you can bet I was perfect.

she didnt yell. she didnt reprimand. I felt her love and caring. I wanted to please her and show her that I was that wonderful girl in the first "joke".

I feel that is much more effective then if she had rebuked me harshly or yelled at me and had me stand in the corner (which my english principal did when I was in 1st grade- that was not effective at all)

Maya

Tue, May 21 2013, 2:11 pm

I don't think it's the teacher's place. Either the principal should do it, or someone else should be hired expressly for this job.

In my opinion, if you want to keep a good relationship with your students and ensure that they continue to absorb and listen to your lessons, keep it separate. I hated my teachers who reprimanded me about my clothes, and I ended up rejecting all they taught me.

happybeingamom

Tue, May 21 2013, 3:10 pm

Simple1 wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

I am a harried mother and I will not let my daughters wear something that I don't think is tznius or break school rules even though everyone else is. We should expect 12 year olds to act their age and their mothers should parent.

OutATowner

Tue, May 21 2013, 3:13 pm

It is ridiculous to say "only because the principal said so." Do you enforce no cheating? Do you enforce other school rules? Regardless of hashkafa, if you are a teacher you are expected to enforce school rules.
You don't have to be a police. You can say "Leah, looks like you grew, pull your skirt down a bit." Trust me, these girls know what they are wearing.
I just can't comprehend why you think you can turn a blind eye to breaking school rules just because you have to be the "good guy." I have students who I talk to about tznius and boys and they come back to talk to me on their own.

red sea

Tue, May 21 2013, 3:53 pm

I think you are great OP and think you are doing the right thing. If someones knees are showing maybe the school office should have a standardized slip to send home to the parents in an envelope stating 'your daughter has grown and her knees are showing. Please make the time to purchase a new skirt asap'. Then if the parent doesn't comply after say a week or two, there can be a note that your dd won't be allowed back before a new skirt is gotten and see if it financial reasons that is causing it maybe the school can help facilitate the purchase.

HindaRochel

Tue, May 21 2013, 4:04 pm

If it is one or two girls I'd just tell them "'Name' I've noticed your skirts are somewhat above the knee. The dress code for this school requires skirts below the knee even when sitting down."

If it is a lot of students then I might start the class with the above statement, just saying "'Class'..." or however you address the class as a whole instead of the students name and "I've noticed that some of you are coming to school with skirts ...."

You aren't policing then, you are informing.

scrltfr

Tue, May 21 2013, 4:23 pm

We had a teacher in my high school that was the tzinuis officer and she was horrible. To this day I will never forget the embarrassment she caused me and no she was not doing it for my benefit she was just a horrible person. Yes, some of my skirts may have been iffy, but had she actually spoken to me like a person I would have explained to her that I could not afford to buy other skirts and that I shared a wardrobe with my sister who was about 4 inches shorter than me and older so she was the primary chooser of whatever clothes we did buy and the rest were hand-me-downs from family friends. This teacher paraded me around the school pointing out my chutzpah to anyone she could. Needless to say it did not bring me closer to yiddishkeit it turned me off horribly. Please please be careful how you approach these matters, talk to the girls in a respectful and kind way. If someone had taken that route with me it would have made all the difference. Sometimes its not just about rules, there could be some underlying issues and it is important that schools realize this before more neshamos get lost.

malkacooks

Tue, May 21 2013, 4:46 pm

oh does this bring back memories... I agree with the poster above. you must be so careful what you say or better yet. let someone else to it. I remember I had this teacher in the 8th grade that I loved so much until one day (I'm not sure if she was having a bad day or what) spoke to me very harshly about my "lack of tzniut" and "didn't I want to be a good person". It was such a turnoff after that> ibasically tuned her out the rest of the year.

Fox

Tue, May 21 2013, 4:49 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

I really like this approach. Getting into a debate with the girls themselves or their parents about what is or isn't tznius is a losing battle.

I would also try to be sensitive to whether it's a growth issue or a fashion statement, particularly if the girl might not have the financial ability to simply purchase a new skirt. You know the girls, and you know who might have grown a few inches versus who is attempting to push the envelope because she wants to be cool.

amother

Tue, May 21 2013, 5:09 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I don't think hiring someone specifically to be the tznius cop is a good idea.

I agree and leaving it all to the principal because you don't want to be the "bad guy" is not fair as well.

I work in a capacity of principal/director/whatever of a school/camp/program (don't want to get into specifics) and a lot of the staff complains about the level of tznius in the girls but when it comes down to it they are loathe to say anything because they don't want the girls "not to like them".

At the end of the day, the primary person who says anything is me and it bothers me a lot that the other staff members don't say anything. I actually think the person who has the closest relationship with the person (not me!!!!) by virtue of the relationship, can usually temper their words with positive/make sure the student knows the "enforcer" thinks well of them etc, and therefore THAT person should be the one to say something. If someone was to give me mussar, I'd prefer it be a person who I know thinks well of me, sees my other qualities which are good. . .

If you don't agree with the rule, then decide whether you are comfortable working there where they expect you to enforce it (and I'd venture to say most schools/camps/programs expect the staff to enforce their rules)! If you agree with the rule but are just nervous about how you will be perceived and how your words will come across (a valid concern), speak to someone(s) about the best way to word it and get your message across in a caring etc manner.

Good luck!

OutATowner

Wed, May 22 2013, 6:06 pm

I thought of this thread today.
A 7th grader was wearing a zip up sweater in a very hot classroom. I casually asked her why she was wearing it if it was so hot. She showed me that her skirt was pulled up several inches so it would just cover the knee. Her sweater covered her pulled up, rolled up skirt.

Did I yell? No. I spoke to her during reccess about why it's worth it for her to be so hot just for her skirt to be several inches shorter. We ended up speaking about her need to find ways to look different from her twin, which is what was bothering her.

If you feel like a police, you'll be perceived as a police.
If you care about a student and understand that it's your place to enforce school rules in a non-threatening manner, then you'll help a lot of students.