Would you give an honest reference?

amother

Wed, May 22 2013, 9:13 pm

A person asked me for a reference for a lady to work in her business. I know the lady and she does face several challenges. She is not tznius and she has a potty mouth. She will be working with teen girls. The women has not been willing to modify her clothes in shul or visiting tznius houses. We veiw her as a chesed case. My rav said be nice and polite which I am.

I don't like her being around my children. Today her skirt was hiked mid-thigh while outside playing with her kids and I could see the tips of her breasts. She is great with kids except for her dress and potty mouth.

precious

Wed, May 22 2013, 9:19 pm

I generally give honest references, you should probably ask your rav, who it seems already knows about her. I get really upset when people I trust give great recommendations (for babysitters, in my case) and it turned out afterwords that they really knew about all the problematic issues and didn't tell me. Thats what people get references for.

TwinsMommy

Wed, May 22 2013, 9:29 pm

I would be 100% honest listing all pros and all cons. Perhaps for that particular business, she'd be on the phone and not with people so her clothing wouldn't matter and a "potty mouth" can sometimes rise to the occasion for phone work.

Our babysitter also has a bit of a mouth but she's 100% reliable and that's what was most important to me. She doesn't use BAD words around the kids just things I don't like her saying "you're a BAD little girl!" --- so I correct her and my kids understand that's just how she talks.

I recently gave a reference for someone who has great skills, but lots of drama in her life that distracts her from working consistently and well. The great skills tend to win out and she tends to get jobs, so I was honest, and she was hired. You never know.

morah

Wed, May 22 2013, 9:34 pm

Did she ask you beforehand to give the reference? Generally accepted protocol is that you only agree to do so if you feel you can give a good one. If not, then you need to be honest and say you can't do it and she should ask someone else. If she didn't ask you but just put your name down, then she took a risk in assuming you have only good things to say. On the other hand, are the issues you mention pertinent to the job? If not, then it's not fair to sink her chances that way.

imasinger

Wed, May 22 2013, 9:59 pm

You can say that you don't feel qualified to give a reference.

You can mention her good qualities, but also say,"There might be a few concerns about her language and her dress style."

Or, you can just tell it straight.

Or, you could just list her positive qualiries, and let the rest slide. It really depends on the circumstance.

How badly does she need the parnassa? How grave are your concerns?

And if you told her that you were called for a reference and were hesitant to respond because of these issues, might it help her to change?

amother

Wed, May 22 2013, 10:42 pm

OP here: The potential employee did not ask me to give her a reference. She asked me to get her the job. I didn't mention it, but she got someone else to ask for her. The business owner told me that because I was friends with her she knew she was the type of women she would want around the girls.

The girls will be working closely with her everyday in a small group. I would definitely not want my daughters in close contact. I also didn't want to endorse her so I told the business owner that I wouldn't hire her. I feel terrible now for telling the truth, but she is unsuitable.

chocolate chips

Wed, May 22 2013, 10:45 pm

I would give a good reference, as best as I can (based on her actual working skills not her dress or mouth skills).
I would also casually ask "is dress an issue for you..or will she need to have a dress code" if they say yes say oh well you may want to know that she does not follow all the standards of tzniut.
and if you really must, mention that she is a great lady, really sweet but she often says what comes to mind without filtering.
Say it in the nicest way possible. It may not be a bad thing to some people.

Lady Godiva

Wed, May 22 2013, 10:47 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sure the potential employer will see what she dresses like and will either let her know how she is expected to dress, or let her know that she will not be hired for whatever (hopefully legitimate) reason. You should not bring that up. It's lashon hara, or possibly motzi shem ra.

Why do you view her as a "chesed case?" Does she know what you think of her? That's not a very "nice" or "polite" way to view a person. You might want to follow your rabbi's advice.

By the way, what part of the breasts are the tips? Confused

amother

Wed, May 22 2013, 10:52 pm

chocolate chips wrote:

For sure, tznius is expected or I wouldn't have any issue. Also the fact that somehow by knowing me, I am endorsing her bothers me. She knows all the rules of tznius but is in rebellion now. She used to dress fine. Her potty mouth is also new.