Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show

dilego

Sat, Jun 08 2013, 5:59 pm

what bothers me ten times more than her leaving yiddishkeit,which is very sad,is that she took teenagehood experiences which they usually feel very differently than they where said,and throws it out.its frustrating that These type of Kids or if u prefer grown ups get a Forum for their huge chillul has-em.its the chillul that bothers me the most.most issues can be dealt with in an orderly quiet way.in my eyes she just is a teen ager that hasn't left teenage Hood.she should use degree for better and smarter stuff then to talk not nicely about a community that she grew up with.smtms a teen ager only klicks out of his idiocies when they are shown the door b.c.they have too be mechabed a way a house is run parents dont have chiyuv off kabed es yaldecha

Simple1

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:45 am

Fox, I enjoyed reading your post. You explained so well what I could never put in words. Along the same lines, a common complaint about the very yeshivish is that they can be very judgmental. But I noticed that non yeshivish, and also non frum Jews can also be very very judgmental, it's just not about tznius, but about other things. And some yeshivish people are not judgmental, it's just a matter of personality.

And this is why it's so unfair that the media keeps portraying how terrible Ultra Orthodox Jews are and they don't show the whole package. Also, there is so much wiggle room within the yeshivish community, and it ranges from more modern to super yeshivish, and sometimes within one family you'll have this range.

poelmamosh

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 12:09 pm

bamamama wrote:

Something that people are failing to grasp is that some (many?) of these people who are OTD are knowledge seekers. At some point, they've opened Pandora's box and the house of cards fell apart for them - they uncovered some piece of knowledge that negates/dismisses enough of our mesorah that they can't come back. It's not necessarily always about a screwed up family or mental problems (though Leah certainly is the author of her own story so I won't dispute her testimony!).

I find myself in this position right now. I find myself still observing mitzvot but also asking myself "what's the point?". Arguments I've heard so far in favor of Torah and mitzvot aren't cutting it. I did read that it's impossible to convince a skeptic so maybe I'm stuck.

In any case, everyone who is wringing their hands and wondering why the OTD person just, nebuch, doesn't do teshuvah...I can guarantee that the situation looks very, very different from the POV of the OTD/Orthoprax person.

How do you reconcile the above with the fact that there are many highly intelligent, well-educated people who became frum and claim to have done so from a thinking, logical perspective?

I am not asking this ch"v to dismiss your personal experience, I'm just trying to understand. This is a theoretical question based, I must admit, on a pretty superficial survey of those I know in real life --I am not in the habit of going around and asking people who jumped on or off the wagon what their deepest convictions are. But I know dozens of intellectual, educated (some PhDs too) baalei teshuva and ONE person who says he left yiddishkeit due to "irreconcileable logic." But he's someone I watched grow up (he still has some of that to do!) and he was always somewhat of a smart-aleck and well, I have a hard time taking his intellectual processes so seriously.

(Feel free to ignore the question if you think it's disrespectful.)

Fox

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 12:19 pm

Simple1 wrote:

And this is why it's so unfair that the media keeps portraying how terrible Ultra Orthodox Jews are and they don't show the whole package.

I'll even go a step further: I am 100 percent opposed to the term "Ultra-Orthodox Jews." I don't go around protesting it, but I think it is one of the most destructive appellations to emerge over the past 25-30 years. It legitimizes unconscious liberal anti-Semitism; it divides Jews even further; and it facilitates the export of Israeli political fights.

There is only Orthodox (observant of halacha) and non-Orthodox (not observant of halacha). Allowing and/or encouraging others to decide just how observant any of us are based on our clothing or habits reflects the basest form of stereotyping.

What do people really mean by "Ultra-Orthodox"? In almost every case, it means, "People who are observant of halacha but wear different clothing or maintain cultural practices that make them easily identifiable from members of mainstream secular society." In other words, those "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews dress funny and do weird things!

I think it's a mistake in the U.S. to let various media get away with what is, at its base, a divide-and-conquer technique. When Reuters or the AP uses the "Ultra Orthodox," they are attempting to make a distinction in the minds of their audience between those crazy fanatics and the nice Jewish people they know.

In fact, allowing the phrase to gain traction is dangerous. Once the "Ultra-Orthodox" have been identified as "religious fanatics," it's very easy to marginalize or demonize them -- we've seen this occur when animal rights groups protest legalized shechita, for example. This isn't good for any Jew, even those who don't dress funny or do weird things.

"How I left my fanatical religious environment" memoirs and interviews play into the media construct that observant Jews are religious fanatics who are fundamentally different from the Jews they know -- or are. And Katie Couric doesn't know or have time to educate her viewers that there's any difference between Lakewood, Boro Park, Cedarhurst, Teaneck, etc. To her and to them, halachically-observant Jews are a relatively monolithic group.

To quote the late A. M. Rosenthal in the wake of the Crown Heights pogrom of 1991: "Sweethearts, by you, you are Park Avenue, by your wife you are Park Avenue, but by an anti-Semite you are a Hasid."

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 12:57 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

bamamama wrote:

Also: when was the last time someone went on a talk show and said s/he left orthodox Judaism for intellectual reasons? OK, I get that it isn't as sensational so they won't necessarily be sought after. But I don't get the sense that a whole lot of people have tried and failed to make sense of our religion.

That said, I do know people who are no longer frum because of intellectual reasons. I know a couple of these people well, and I can say that they had certain "blocks" that made them get stuck on different fundamental areas. In other words, they weren't really open to exploring the other side of certain issues. So as much as they asked, and were given various answers, they just wouldn't accept those answers because they didn't have an open mind. They didn't have a yearning to make it work, they seemed to almost be sabotaging it.

It kind of reminds me of people who always think that Israel is in the wrong. You can talk until you're blue in the face about what's really happening there, but they don't really want to hear the truth and nothing will make them change their minds.

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 1:18 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

bamamama wrote:

As someone of moderate intelligence who became frum, I can tell you that I quickly learned that the concept that certain material outside the scope of chareidi approbation was off-limits. If the subject concerned religion and wasn't from an "authentic", rabbi-approved source, I didn't even open it.

There is also the possibility that people who have opened Pandora's box and read certain things have made the decision that they prefer life within the community and are willing to suspend their disbelief.

Certainly, not everyone who goes OTD is a PhD candidate Wink

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 1:21 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

bamamama wrote:

Respectfully, many of the answers are not acceptable, intellectually. At least that's been my case. I'm currently actively seeking a way to stay under the Orthodox tent but for me it will have to be a very liberal theology as some of the problems I have conflict with my own sense of morality.

penguin

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 5:01 pm

I saw some of the interview. Bringing her home from Israel for one sweater.. Kicking her out of the house... Threatening to put her away for wanting to go to college... Only listening to Pirchei...

I was very curious what extreme sect this can be. Although I was sure that, like many OTD's who choose to publicize their choices, she must be exaggerating.

Now that I hear who her parents are, I am sorry, I can't believe that there is one full sentence that is accurate. I don't know the Millers very well, but I know that they are normal people and this had to be so much exaggeration that there can hardly be a grain of truth in it.

If she said she was breaking a lot of rules in her school and maybe the sweater was the last straw, maybe. If she wanted to go to Harvard and her parents preferred she attend a program under Orthodox auspices. maybe.

If she was extremely bright, bored in school, had trouble making friends because she was intellectually above them, fine. That's sad, and I feel bad for her. But there are lots of people with that nisayon, and they manage to stay religious.

There is absolutely nothing else there that can have more than 1% or truth with 99% embellishment.

I know someone above claims she said the truth. Please come back and tell us the rest of the story, because, I, for one, don't believe you.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 5:11 pm

Fox wrote:

Simple1 wrote:

And this is why it's so unfair that the media keeps portraying how terrible Ultra Orthodox Jews are and they don't show the whole package.

I've heard these kind of arguments before, but honestly, I've never quite understood why people get so worked up about them. When I was a member of the ultra-Orthodox crowd it was something we took pride in. Additionally, I think it's unfair to point to outsiders as engaging in this classification, it's insiders too. Despite your claim of there only being "Orthodox" and "non-Orthodox", how often do we hear people refer to their own crowd as "Torah-true" or "authentically frum", etc.? These classifications and divisions are bound to happen when you have a large group that doesn't see eye to eye on important issues, there's just no avoiding it, in my opinion.

penguin

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:04 pm

Quote:

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

But sometimes the answer is that the child made bad choices, was mislead by their yetzer hara, there was nothing their parents did wrong.

I know that Rabbi Miller is a baal machshava, not at all the type to ostracize a child for asking questions in hashkafa, emunah etc. (which would be one of the behaviors that might cause a child to leave).

I'm not saying our communities can't improve. (And actually, I am probably guilty of being sure that those to the right of me are extremist, suppressive and stifling. Although I try to be dan lekaf zchus.)

But there is something awfully sad about point 2 - and why can't you believe it's true? Yes, if someone goes OTD, they will feel better if they can justify it because their family was cruel, overbearing etc. Except that if people know their family, they may have their lies exposed. Sorry, it's just the way things are.

He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:08 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

OK, I'm not going to debate you personally. But something jumped out at me- "my own sense of morality." The Torahs definition of morality is not going to be consistent with Western definitions of morality. If you go back to the basics and work on each layer, I think you can have someone knowledgeable redefine morality for you in a way that is logical and consistent. However, if you're trying to reconcile that with Western morality, you will not succeed. You first have to make the choice to be open to redefining morality.

This is an excellent point, but you should take it further. One should ask themselves, "Why do I choose to subscribe to the Torah definition of morality?" If you trace it back, I think you'll find at some point that you're actually acting out of your own sense of morality. Even those who think they are wholly submitting themselves to the Torah's definition of morality, might not actually be. At the deepest level, they chose that path because it was consistent with their own innate sense of propriety. And I think we can prove this, based on the simple fact that for most of us, there are limits to what we're willing to do, even if we've been convinced it's right according to the Torah. It's because if it goes against our own sense of morality, we won't go for it.

(Sometimes we have clever ways of avoiding having to face this dichotomy. Like when we respond to these difficult choices with, "That's not really what the Torah wants us to do," or "Find a Rav that will pasken according to your hashkafa." But ask yourself, is there an area, a red line, where you'd not abide by a Torah directive? If so, then you have a sense of morality that is at odds with the Torah's.)

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:15 pm

penguin wrote:

Quote:

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

But sometimes the answer is that the child made bad choices, was mislead by their yetzer hara, there was nothing their parents did wrong.

Without taking away the responsibility that rests with each person on the path they choose to take in life, I would suggest that any situation which results in a falling out of the sort that Leah Vincent describes indicates the parents did plenty wrong. Contrast that with an article in today's NY Newsday about a woman who is no longer chassidish but still frum and still has a good relationship with her family. If only that would be the norm.

genedelagoodgirl

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:15 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

It seems to me that the reaction to people leaving frumkeit tends to fall along the lines of 2 typical responses:

Either they come from a dysfunctional family, in which case they can be written off as a bunch of wackos and the exception to everyone else who never has such problems.
Or they come from a normal family and they are obviously lying and/or exaggerating to sell their book/axe grind/vendetta, etc.

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

Very interesting and true analysis. I know someone who is off the derech because she is not sure if there is a God--she says that there is no evidence to prove or disprove the concept of God and she concludes that religion is man-made so why should she have to follow any man-made religious derech when she could just decide for herself what she wants to do with her life? Anyway, she has intellectual reasons for being otd but she unfortunately comes from a "broken home" so people in the community say she's off the derech because of that (broken home) and completely dismiss her intellectual reasons for being otd. Its really sad that we are categorizing and stereotyping all otd people into two categories and completely dismissing anything intellectual that they have to say.
Now I wonder if Leah also has intellectual reasons as to why she is not religious but that is entirely being overlooked by her story of how her family treated her. It would be nice if someone interviewed her to see if she has any real, intellectual reasons as to why she is otd.

Raisin

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:31 pm

genedelagoodgirl wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

It seems to me that the reaction to people leaving frumkeit tends to fall along the lines of 2 typical responses:

Either they come from a dysfunctional family, in which case they can be written off as a bunch of wackos and the exception to everyone else who never has such problems.
Or they come from a normal family and they are obviously lying and/or exaggerating to sell their book/axe grind/vendetta, etc.

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

Someone with a warm loving family might not want to upset them and decide to remain (outwardly) frum anyway so as not to hurt their family, even if they don't intellectually believe very much.