Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:43 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

penguin wrote:

Quote:

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

But sometimes the answer is that the child made bad choices, was mislead by their yetzer hara, there was nothing their parents did wrong.

Without taking away the responsibility that rests with each person on the path they choose to take in life, I would suggest that any situation which results in a falling out of the sort that Leah Vincent describes indicates the parents did plenty wrong. Contrast that with an article in today's NY Newsday about a woman who is no longer chassidish but still frum and still has a good relationship with her family. If only that would be the norm.

To elaborate on what I wrote above, I think it's understandable that every community, from the most progressive to the most traditional, is allowed to have certain rules, boundaries, which they expect their members to abide by and which, if they don't, there will be some sort of negative reaction. When people stop being frum, it's indeed possible that it's due to their own desire to cross those boundaries and there is no one to blame but themselves. However, I think we all know that in the last few decades, those rules of what frum society expects of its member have grown far more numerous, far more restrictive, and far less tolerant of pluralism, dissent or non-conformity. For far too many, the box that they are expected to fit into has become quite narrow.

So yes, maybe those people themselves can be blamed for wanting to step beyond the acceptable boundaries, but who is responsible for pushing those boundaries to become ever more narrow, stifling, and onerous?

genedelagoodgirl

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:47 pm

Raisin wrote:

genedelagoodgirl wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

It seems to me that the reaction to people leaving frumkeit tends to fall along the lines of 2 typical responses:

Either they come from a dysfunctional family, in which case they can be written off as a bunch of wackos and the exception to everyone else who never has such problems.
Or they come from a normal family and they are obviously lying and/or exaggerating to sell their book/axe grind/vendetta, etc.

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

Very interesting and true analysis. I know someone who is off the derech because she is not sure if there is a God--she says that there is no evidence to prove or disprove the concept of God and she concludes that religion is man-made so why should she have to follow any man-made religious derech when she could just decide for herself what she wants to do with her life? Anyway, she has intellectual reasons for being otd but she unfortunately comes from a "broken home" so people in the community say she's off the derech because of that (broken home) and completely dismiss her intellectual reasons for being otd. Its really sad that we are categorizing and stereotyping all otd people into two categories and completely dismissing anything intellectual that they have to say.
Now I wonder if Leah also has intellectual reasons as to why she is not religious but that is entirely being overlooked by her story of how her family treated her. It would be nice if someone interviewed her to see if she has any real, intellectual reasons as to why she is otd.

Someone with a warm loving family might not want to upset them and decide to remain (outwardly) frum anyway so as not to hurt their family, even if they don't intellectually believe very much.

I hope that the family is warm and loving enough to accept the choices of an otd child and not force him/her to live a double life just for the sake of the family. It could be psychological damaging for anyone to live a double life just to please the parents and/or family. Besides, is a son/daughter really obligated to please his/her parents to the point where they have to fake who they are? Whatever happened to unconditional love and acceptance of parents to child--does that no longer exist because of religion? If thats the case then I feel really bad for all the children in the religious communities who are struggling with their yiddishkeit.

octopus

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:10 pm

I doubt leah left yiddishkeit for intellectual reasons. just because someone is smart doesn't mean they left because of unanswered questions. she is very clear that she left for emotional reasons. she felt cut off.

this is @ ppl with intellectual questions about yiddishkeit:

many times we learn things when we are younger and never relearn it as we get older. so then we have grown observant adults that see judaism through 8 year old glasses. This is a grave mistake. we always have to continue asking questions- and find someone (!) who will be able to answer our questions about judaism in a way that is satisfactory and makes sense. It might be hard to find that somebody. but there are very knowlegable, down to earth, religious ppl out there that can answer questions. I had a few questions myself recently, and if I would have asked the wrong ppl, I probably would've gotten myeslf kicked out of their living rooms. and, yes, while that particular reality is sad, I b'h have a wonderful person to ask, who won't kick me away, ever.

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:27 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

It seems to me that the reaction to people leaving frumkeit tends to fall along the lines of 2 typical responses:

Either they come from a dysfunctional family, in which case they can be written off as a bunch of wackos and the exception to everyone else who never has such problems.
Or they come from a normal family and they are obviously lying and/or exaggerating to sell their book/axe grind/vendetta, etc.

Both these responses accomplish the same thing: they allow the community to avoid asking themselves how their own behaviors and norms might contribute to this sort of thing happening.

I don't know about you, but my community discusses this issue ad nauseum. Everyone wants to know why this is happening and what we can do to prevent it. And serious discussions don't include your above two responses. Then again, serious discussions aren't about anyone specific.

If you watch this interview, I challenge you to come up with any explanation other than 1) her parents are crazy or 2) she is leaving out a whooooole lot. And you can't fill in the blanks unless she herself provided the information.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:36 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

That said, I do know people who are no longer frum because of intellectual reasons. I know a couple of these people well, and I can say that they had certain "blocks" that made them get stuck on different fundamental areas. In other words, they weren't really open to exploring the other side of certain issues. So as much as they asked, and were given various answers, they just wouldn't accept those answers because they didn't have an open mind. They didn't have a yearning to make it work, they seemed to almost be sabotaging it.

And I know people who were biased the other way, they wanted so desperately to believe, they were dying to regain their emunah, they felt like a limb had been ripped from their lives when they stopped believing, yet none of the answers given to their inquiries were satisfactory.

However, that kind of case does seem to be the exception. In my opinion, I think that for 90% of people who leave, it is rooted primarily (but not solely) in emotional factors of dissatisfaction of one sort or another. I don't mean psychological issues, I mean they are unhappy with something, whether it be the demands of frum life, or hypocrisy they witness, or the pressure to be something they don't want to be, or negative educational experiences, or inconsistencies in ideology, or corrupt behavior from religious leaders/communities, etc. These sort of things leave a very bad taste in people's mouth for frumkeit. However, most people who have been raised to believe in the truths of a Torah life can't just act on these emotional discontents because it violates their notions of truth and right/wrong. And so they start delving into intellectual areas, in order to see if the truth that is keeping them in this unhappy state stands up to scrutiny.

So yes, I think it's true that many people who have intellectual discussions, indeed do have a "block" to hearing the arguments*. But it's not due to the simplistic view that they just want to run after their taivos, yetzer hara, etc. It's because they are miserable and unhappy with the consequences of what the person is trying to convince them of. It's like trying to convince a kid who doesn't like the taste of broccoli that he should eat it it because of its great nutritional value. Is the kid being dishonest by being resistant to that argument? Or is the parent being foolish in not addressing the root of the child's discontent? If we would pay more attention to the factors that make people unhappy with frum life, I think we'd have much less of a need convincing people of its veracity. But this approach necessitates looking at our own contribution to the problem; how our ever-increasing chumras, our increasingly restrictive standards of acceptable behavior, our ever-narrowing notions of acceptable thought, our willingness to ignore the dysfunctions of our society, have led so many people to feel negatively about frum life. It's always easier to write off those who leave as exceptions, messed up, exaggerating, etc. or to blame it on "the lures of the outside world," than it is to question whether the path we've been led down might not be as perfect as we've been told it is.

*As to the intellectual arguments presented, regardless of the bias OTD people have towards hearing them, I have to confess, to me they tend to sound really weak. They've just never seemed very convincing to me. Even if the people weren't emotionally biased against them, I don't blame anyone for not buying into them.

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:52 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Obviously, you're right. I agree that most communities are trying to address the issue more substantively and don't entirely dismiss the issue out of hand. I was referring more to the off-the-cuff reaction of the average person who hears about a specific case of someone going OTD. I've found that the knee-jerk reaction of most frum people is to dismiss individual stories in some way as an anomaly that doesn't reflect on the community as a whole.

But honestly, even speaking of when the community addresses it, do you think they're really considering their own culpability in a serious way? From my vantage point, I haven't seen too much honest introspection on their part. We still hear people blame "the outside world" constantly. We hear people calling for more strictness (as that article previously mentioned did). We hear calls for raising the walls to the outside world ever higher.

They might indeed be facing the problem, but they're not doing it in a very productive or honest way, IMHO. The community still does not see their own behaviors as contributing to the problem.

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 7:58 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Obviously, you're right. I agree that most communities are trying to address the issue more substantively and don't entirely dismiss the issue out of hand. I was referring more to the off-the-cuff reaction of the average person who hears about a specific case of someone going OTD. I've found that the knee-jerk reaction of most frum people is to dismiss individual stories in some way as an anomaly that doesn't reflect on the community as a whole.

And honestly, even when the community does discuss it, do you think they're really considering their own culpability in a serious way? From my vantage point, I haven't seen too much honest introspection on their part. We still hear people blame "the outside world" constantly. We hear people calling for more strictness (as that article previously mentioned did). We hear calls for raising the walls to the outside world ever higher.

They might indeed be be facing the problem, but they're not doing it in a very productive or honest way, IMHO. The community still does not see their own behaviors as contributing to the problem.

Hmmm I'm not sure. I don't really want to go into too much detail, but the rosh kehilla where I live is actually very much blaming unnecessary community/familial pressures. He is constantly imploring parents to relax their expectations of their kids and give them space to develop on their own trajectory. So they don't want to wear a hat to davening. So they want to watch the playoffs. So they don't want to learn with you when they have a break. It's ok! Keep loving them, make religion a positive thing, and focus on the important stuff.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:01 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Wow, that's reassuring to hear. I hope more rabbonim, mechanchim, and parents are spreading this message. But I haven't yet seen too much evidence for it.

Isramom8

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:03 pm

The interview briefly mentions Leah's father's revelation that the girl had been under psychiatric care. Leah brushes that off as an excuse to negate her believability. But she doesn't answer the question. Was she seeing a psychiatrist? Why? Who was paying? What behaviors did she exhibit as a teen other than once wearing a tight sweater?

Why was she in seminary at 16? Were her parents actually trying everything they could to accommodate her specific needs? It just sounds like it would take a lot of history for things to end up the way they did. Stop blaming outcomes on bad parenting.

When you are talking about functional parents then you do have to consider that it's not all their fault. Parents like you and me who try our very best don't deserve to be victimized. Do you really think that any challenged child of yours would turn out great because you'd know just how to handle the situation? These seem to be parents who would do just what you and I would do, which is that we'd do our best.

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:20 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Wow, that's reassuring to hear. I hope more rabbonim, mechanchim, and parents are spreading this message. But I haven't yet seen too much evidence for it.

You're right, I'm sure it isn't widespread enough. It very much depends on the community.

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:46 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

OK, I'm not going to debate you personally. But something jumped out at me- "my own sense of morality." The Torahs definition of morality is not going to be consistent with Western definitions of morality. If you go back to the basics and work on each layer, I think you can have someone knowledgeable redefine morality for you in a way that is logical and consistent. However, if you're trying to reconcile that with Western morality, you will not succeed. You first have to make the choice to be open to redefining morality.

Ok. My own sense of morality says that women should not be treated as property. Yet, historically, Chazal have treated them that way. I'm not talking about Western morality. I'm talking about the deep-seated gut feeling that Hashem gave all of us to differentiate between right and wrong when we don't have a sefer/Rav to run to.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:47 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

What difference does this make regardless? Does any of it justify disowning one's child at the age of 16? It's well known that the frum world sends people to counseling for any behavior that is out of the norm. Being that that's case, I suppose anyone who goes through some tumultuous years can now be discredited because they spent some time with a therapist?

Isramom8 wrote:

These seem to be parents who would do just what you and I would do, which is that we'd do our best.

Firstly, that's a meaningless statement. Everyone thinks they're doing "their best". But everyone's definition of "doing their best" is totally different. Secondly, we haven't heard anything from the parents (aside from that very unflattering letter). Why assume the best from them, yet at the same time, the worst from her?

poelmamosh

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:49 pm

bamamama wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

bamamama wrote:

Something that people are failing to grasp is that some (many?) of these people who are OTD are knowledge seekers. At some point, they've opened Pandora's box and the house of cards fell apart for them - they uncovered some piece of knowledge that negates/dismisses enough of our mesorah that they can't come back. It's not necessarily always about a screwed up family or mental problems (though Leah certainly is the author of her own story so I won't dispute her testimony!).

I find myself in this position right now. I find myself still observing mitzvot but also asking myself "what's the point?". Arguments I've heard so far in favor of Torah and mitzvot aren't cutting it. I did read that it's impossible to convince a skeptic so maybe I'm stuck.

In any case, everyone who is wringing their hands and wondering why the OTD person just, nebuch, doesn't do teshuvah...I can guarantee that the situation looks very, very different from the POV of the OTD/Orthoprax person.

How do you reconcile the above with the fact that there are many highly intelligent, well-educated people who became frum and claim to have done so from a thinking, logical perspective?

I am not asking this ch"v to dismiss your personal experience, I'm just trying to understand. This is a theoretical question based, I must admit, on a pretty superficial survey of those I know in real life --I am not in the habit of going around and asking people who jumped on or off the wagon what their deepest convictions are. But I know dozens of intellectual, educated (some PhDs too) baalei teshuva and ONE person who says he left yiddishkeit due to "irreconcileable logic." But he's someone I watched grow up (he still has some of that to do!) and he was always somewhat of a smart-aleck and well, I have a hard time taking his intellectual processes so seriously.

(Feel free to ignore the question if you think it's disrespectful.)

As someone of moderate intelligence who became frum, I can tell you that I quickly learned that the concept that certain material outside the scope of chareidi approbation was off-limits. If the subject concerned religion and wasn't from an "authentic", rabbi-approved source, I didn't even open it.

There is also the possibility that people who have opened Pandora's box and read certain things have made the decision that they prefer life within the community and are willing to suspend their disbelief.

Certainly, not everyone who goes OTD is a PhD candidate Wink

Oh, I think we all "suspend our disbelief" at some point. I question the notion though, that exposure to alternate belief systems will automatically cause sfeikos in emunah. Do you think that if you would have explored Judaism with a more open mind originally, you would not have adopted Orthodoxy at all? Or that with life experience you'd be in this position regardless? Again, I'm not a BT, but I have many close friends and some extended family members who are, and noone became frum in a vacuum. Confused

bamamama wrote:

Respectfully, many of the answers are not acceptable, intellectually. At least that's been my case. I'm currently actively seeking a way to stay under the Orthodox tent but for me it will have to be a very liberal theology as some of the problems I have conflict with my own sense of morality.

You and I have had this discussion before, bamamama...
I just read an article quoting Rabbi Shalom Schwadron ZL. He spoke about the role of witnesses in Judaism, and how conflicting testimony will cast the truth in doubt. But, say two groups of witnesses are arguing about the culpability of an alleged murderer and then the "dead" man walks into the courtroom. In the face of what the speaker knows to be reality (Torah), no testimony to the contrary can transmute...

Simple1

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:00 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Wow, that's reassuring to hear. I hope more rabbonim, mechanchim, and parents are spreading this message. But I haven't yet seen too much evidence for it.

Mrs. Kaisman gives speeches in Lakewood about raising teens and stresses a lot about the importance of teaching a child the difference between halacha, chumra, and sensitivities.

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:21 pm

bamamama wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:26 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

There's suspension of disbelief (I.e. the leap required to believe in God to begin with) and complete suspension of a prior morality. I did the latter. I can't accept chareidi Judaism's stance on women and their roles. I just can't. Well, I can for myself, but I would hate myself for putting it on my kids because I discovered that I fundamentally believe it to be wrong. It was fine and even avant garde for thousands of years (women are slaves, but treat them mostly nicely) but I don't live in that world and I have no desire to exchange my egalitarian life for one where, even if it's nicely glossed over and explained with lots of mental gymnastics, pink, and pretty words, women are not the equals of men.

poelmamosh wrote:

You'll forgive me if I don't remember. I don't think I understand the relevance of the story. Torah is 100% true so nothing that appears contrary can ever be real?