Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show

Sherri

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:27 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I don't know about you, but my community discusses this issue ad nauseum. Everyone wants to know why this is happening and what we can do to prevent it. And serious discussions don't include your above two responses. Then again, serious discussions aren't about anyone specific.

Obviously, you're right. I agree that most communities are trying to address the issue more substantively and don't entirely dismiss the issue out of hand. I was referring more to the off-the-cuff reaction of the average person who hears about a specific case of someone going OTD. I've found that the knee-jerk reaction of most frum people is to dismiss individual stories in some way as an anomaly that doesn't reflect on the community as a whole.

But honestly, even speaking of when the community addresses it, do you think they're really considering their own culpability in a serious way? From my vantage point, I haven't seen too much honest introspection on their part. We still hear people blame "the outside world" constantly. We hear people calling for more strictness (as that article previously mentioned did). We hear calls for raising the walls to the outside world ever higher.

They might indeed be facing the problem, but they're not doing it in a very productive or honest way, IMHO. The community still does not see their own behaviors as contributing to the problem.

BlueRose (Blue Roses?), have you read the counter-article by Rabbi Bender this week?

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:32 pm

Simple1 wrote:

Mrs. Kaisman gives speeches in Lakewood about raising teens and stresses a lot about the importance of teaching a child the difference between halacha, chumra, and sensitivities.

This is obviously very wise and important to do, but it reminds of a conversation I had not too long ago. Someone raised the question of "If something is better to do, isn't it wrong of us not to do it?" Meaning, even if an act is acknowledged to be a chumra, the attitude was that a proper bas yisroel should want to do a chumra, shouldn't they? Like, if you aren't trying as hard as you can to be the best Jew you can be, then you obviously aren't a very good Jew.

Understanding the difference between halacha, chumra, minhag, etc. is quite important, but I think this might be an even more important message to combat. So much of frum life is actually not required as a halachic baseline, but because everyone wants to do what's "better", the behavior has caught on and by now has become so expected that people view it as if it's required. For instance, the focus on learning gemara for all boys is due to the fact that it's "better" to be a learner than anything else. But the expectation that everyone has to pursue this "better" path has resulted in anyone who would choose what's not "better" as being looked at as doing something terribly wrong.

The point being, it's not just about knowing what's really halacha vs. extra-halachic. It's also important to know that not everyone has to be striving to be the equivalent of a halachic olympian.

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:36 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

bamamama wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

OK, I'm not going to debate you personally. But something jumped out at me- "my own sense of morality." The Torahs definition of morality is not going to be consistent with Western definitions of morality. If you go back to the basics and work on each layer, I think you can have someone knowledgeable redefine morality for you in a way that is logical and consistent. However, if you're trying to reconcile that with Western morality, you will not succeed. You first have to make the choice to be open to redefining morality.

Ok. My own sense of morality says that women should not be treated as property. Yet, historically, Chazal have treated them that way. I'm not talking about Western morality. I'm talking about the deep-seated gut feeling that Hashem gave all of us to differentiate between right and wrong when we don't have a sefer/Rav to run to.

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

So Judaism is about ignoring your own gut-feeling? Of course it's not. The problem must lie with the praxis, then. O Judaism likes to disparage liberal Western values/morality but there is a tremendous amount of good and progress that has happened as a result of these values (civil rights, for example). Yes, there's a lot of cr*p as well. But it's a major failing of rabonim that they haven't taken the good and used it to better women's halachic status. It's not a failing of the Torah, it's a failing of human implementation of the Torah in the late 20th and early 21st century.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:37 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

bamamama wrote:

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

Did you actually just suggest that it's merely a modern Western idea that people should not be treated as property? Did I read that right?

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:41 pm

bamamama wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

bamamama wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings. If you don't accept that, you'll have a hard time with anything that contradicts your gut feeling. It sounds like you only want to agree with whatever you already agree with.

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:43 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

bamamama wrote:

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

Did you actually just suggest that it's merely a modern Western idea that people should not be treated as property? Did I read that right?

Nope. I told bama I'm not going to debate her, and I'm not referring to any specific examples. I'm picking on a phrase she used, which can be widely applied.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:57 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Two points:

1. We don't educate our children to do the bare minimum in any other area. We encourage them to stretch their limits and grow from the experience. Obviously this should be done with wisdom and sensitivity. Why not the same when it comes to religion?

2. Gemara learning is stressed because boys will become men who are obligated to learn for the rest of their lives regardless of whatever else they do to earn a living. Men need a solid background in order to enjoy learning and find it stimulating throughout their adult lives.

Thank you so much for proving my point. IMHO, it's this very attitude of always having to do "the most" that contributes to much of the dysfunctional way that chareidi society functions, and which directly leads to many people becoming disillusioned.

And I never suggested to do the bare minimum. There's a wide range between bare minimum and pushing for the maximum. Do you expect your children to be good enough at math to become actuaries? To have perfect handwriting? To be expert chess players? To never eat anything unhealthy? To have perfectly fit bodies? To know how to do everything in life to the maximum? Of course not. We're all perfectly satisfied with settling for basic competency in tons of areas of life. There is nothing wrong with having a similarly moderate approach to religious life for those who that would suit them better.

And regarding your second point. There is no requirement whatsoever for what you are saying. Without getting into the questionableness of your assumption, even if men are required to learn every day, they can fulfill that obligation with a half hour of chumash, or some practical halachos, or anything they want. They don't have to learn gemara, and they sure don't have to spend their most formative years dedicating the bulk of their energies to master a body of knowledge that later on would only be tangential to their life. According to that logic, because a bais yakov girl is probably going to have to cook for her family for the rest of her life, we should have her spend all day through high school studying how to be a master chef.

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:14 pm; edited 2 times in total

bamamama

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:04 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

bamamama wrote:

I don't think you can be so sure that your deep seated gut feeling isn't a product of Western influence. I'm sure many of my own deep seated gut feelings have their true source elsewhere.

Did you actually just suggest that it's merely a modern Western idea that people should not be treated as property? Did I read that right?

Nope. I told bama I'm not going to debate her, and I'm not referring to any specific examples. I'm picking on a phrase she used, which can be widely applied.

I didn't ask you to debate yet somehow I'm disappointed in this response. You are def free to not debate me - I guess I was irrationally hoping for a real answer. (said without a trace of snark whatsoever).

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:44 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings.

And where does that belief originate from? Does it not rest upon some internal moral values independent of your belief in the Torah?

I'm not totally sure what you're asking. That belief originates in other beliefs. There are layers that begin from the ground up.

Same for bama's questions- these aren't issues that can be answered al regel achas. If you really want answers you can spend hours with a knowledgeable rabbi who can build up your belief from the foundations. Anything I write here in a paragraph will sound wimpy because its only a tiny piece of the picture. Plus, I don't know all the answers.

poelmamosh

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:46 pm

bamamama wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

Oh, I think we all "suspend our disbelief" at some point. I question the notion though, that exposure to alternate belief systems will automatically cause sfeikos in emunah. Do you think that if you would have explored Judaism with a more open mind originally, you would not have adopted Orthodoxy at all? Or that with life experience you'd be in this position regardless? Again, I'm not a BT, but I have many close friends and some extended family members who are, and noone became frum in a vacuum. Confused

There's suspension of disbelief (I.e. the leap required to believe in God to begin with) and complete suspension of a prior morality. I did the latter. I can't accept chareidi Judaism's stance on women and their roles. I just can't. Well, I can for myself, but I would hate myself for putting it on my kids because I discovered that I fundamentally believe it to be wrong. It was fine and even avant garde for thousands of years (women are slaves, but treat them mostly nicely) but I don't live in that world and I have no desire to exchange my egalitarian life for one where, even if it's nicely glossed over and explained with lots of mental gymnastics, pink, and pretty words, women are not the equals of men.

I don't subscribe to egalitarianism as a value, but that does not mean that I think the feminist movement was a a negative influence, nor do I believe in every (even many) of the chareidi rules regarding women (not publishing pictures of them, for example) and I see a vast spectrum within Judaism, even say between Williamsburg and Crown Heights. What I do think? Should we save that for another thread? Wink

bamamama wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

You and I have had this discussion before, bamamama...
I just read an article quoting Rabbi Shalom Schwadron ZL. He spoke about the role of witnesses in Judaism, and how conflicting testimony will cast the truth in doubt. But, say two groups of witnesses are arguing about the culpability of an alleged murderer and then the "dead" man walks into the courtroom. In the face of what the speaker knows to be reality (Torah), no testimony to the contrary can transmute...

You'll forgive me if I don't remember. I don't think I understand the relevance of the story. Torah is 100% true so nothing that appears contrary can ever be real?

Right. It ties back to what I've said, oh, probably every time this topic comes up. The world and Torah are at odds with each other on many points. The question is which of the two do you consider the de facto reality?

Last edited by poelmamosh on Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:48 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

Your original post kept referring to "better," not "best" or "most" or "maximum." That's what I was responding to. I agree that those are dangerous. I believe that "better" is an ideal worth striving for.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 10:51 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings.

And where does that belief originate from? Does it not rest upon some internal moral values independent of your belief in the Torah?

I'm not totally sure what you're asking. That belief originates in other beliefs. There are layers that begin from the ground up.

Exactly. That's my point. I think that if you keep tracing the source of your beliefs, eventually you'll end up at something that rests in your gut, in your own innate, intuitive sense of what's right.

Earlier, you wrote, "I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings." What I'm trying to get at it is that when you look at it this way, we all are actually taking our moral cues - at the most deepest, root level - from our gut feelings.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 11:28 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

You're right, I suppose that is somewhat ambiguous. The thing is, when it comes to individual areas of halacha or frumkeit, there is no objective maximum or most, is there? In fact, in all areas of life we can work in, there's typically no final destination. One can always "do more". So always constantly striving to "do better" is what I think of as pushing for that maximum. If there's always more that you can be expected to do, then you'll never be good enough. I guess I should change the sentence above to, "There's a wide range between bare minimum and constantly pushing to do better." (Actually as I just reread what I wrote here, I realize I might not be making sense, so don't hold me to it. Need to think through it more.)

I don't want to sound like I'm saying that we shouldn't be striving to do more. I think that's wonderful, when it's based in an honest desire to do so. But there's a difference between realistically striving to grow in an area that genuinely matters to us, and being expected to be at that better level because society views that goal as something important.

Here's another example that might illustrate it better: Davening with a minyan. A man is not required to daven with a minyan, but obviously, it's better to do so. Yet, this "better" behavior has become so expected in our society that if one doesn't live up to it, he is viewed as doing something wrong. I would not have a problem with saying to a person who doesn't like davening with a minyan, "Davening with a minyan is "better way" of davening, so if you want to grow in that area, that's something worth working on." But instead, we don't view it that way, as an area to genuinely strive towards. Rather, we view the not living up to "the better" as a failing.

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Sun, Jun 09 2013, 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 11:31 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings.

And where does that belief originate from? Does it not rest upon some internal moral values independent of your belief in the Torah?

I'm not totally sure what you're asking. That belief originates in other beliefs. There are layers that begin from the ground up.

OK. So if that were the case, you're still only relying on your gut for the foundation level. Not various moral dilemmas that crop up in everyday life.

BlueRose52

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 11:45 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings.

And where does that belief originate from? Does it not rest upon some internal moral values independent of your belief in the Torah?

I'm not totally sure what you're asking. That belief originates in other beliefs. There are layers that begin from the ground up.

Exactly. That's my point. I think that if you keep tracing the source of your beliefs, eventually you'll end up at something that rests in your gut, in your own innate, intuitive sense of what's right.
Earlier, you wrote, "I believe that morality is defined by the Torah, not by gut feelings." What I'm trying to get at it is that when you look at it this way, we all are actually taking our moral cues - at the most deepest, root level - from our gut feelings.

OK. So if that were the case, you're still only relying on your gut for the foundation level. Not various moral dilemmas that crop up in everyday life.

True, but if everything (even the higher level moral decisions) are an outgrowth of that foundational level, then isn't it, in a sense, all really rooted in that gut level? All authority and power has to stem from somewhere, and when we trace the power to it's source that's where the real authority is. A school-teacher has some power in a classroom because the principal grants it, who gets it from the school board, who gets it from the local government, and on and on. So in the end, the teacher's real authority comes from that last ultimate power.

Same with our moral bearings. If our everyday behaviors can be traced to our belief in the Torah which can be traced to our own innate sense of right and wrong, then our moral choices are not truly based on the Torah, but rather our own innate (gut) sense of right and wrong, which has granted a legitimacy to the Torah ideas.

So as I see it, we all are, in some sense choosing our own moral direction, and not as purely directed by an external (Divine) authority as we might think.