Escaping My Religion Leah Vincent on the Katie Couric Show

Bambamama

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 10:44 am

Merrymom wrote:

It comes across as totally believable. Why is it that everytime someone goes public everyone tries to tear down her story?

Because people sense that she is exploiting her personal family problems to smear the "Ultra-Orthodox." Because her problems won't sell books or offer appearances without the religious oppression and fanatacism angle. What exactly is this oppressive yeshivish sect she claims to have belonged to?

Last edited by Bambamama on Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 10:55 am

Bambamama wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Bambamama wrote:

Obviously there are dysfunctional families (and systems as another mother pointed out) and possibly she came from such a family but her exaggerations make me think she's just joining the bandwagon of ex-Ultra Orthodox Jews for her 15 min. of fame, and book deal.

What exactly are the exaggerations you're talking about? Do you know her story personally? If not, how do you know that what she's describing is an exaggeration?

I would have to review her "testimony" to tell you exactly, and I have no desire. But what comes to mind is how she fed into Katie Couric's question about what her parents meant that they would lock her up if she went to college. And she went on about how terrified she was. When that was hardly an imminent threat. She was 15.

She fed into it? She herself admits it might have been an empty threat! How is that not totally fair-minded? She admits her mother might not have meant it, but if that's how it made her feel as a young teenager, why is it an exaggeration to describe that?

mirisim

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:00 am

She says she was 16 when she went to seminary in Israel.. when I was in seminary the only 16 year old girl was European and she was a minority. Most seminaries don't want girls that young, I know girls who were really young because they skipped and were told to wait a year. I know at neve u have to be at least 19 ....so her story seems a little off to me

Last edited by mirisim on Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:10 am

mirisim wrote:

She says she was 16 when she went to seminary in Israel.. when I was in seminary the only 16 year old girl was European and she was a minority. Most seminaries don't want girls that young, I know girls who were really younge because they skipped and were told to wait a year. I know at neve u have to be at least 19 .... ...so her story seems a little off to me

I was wondering this also. Why is a 16 year old in seminary?

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:19 am

Bambamama wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

It comes across as totally believable. Why is it that everytime someone goes public everyone tries to tear down her story?

There aren't official sects in the yeshivish community like there are in the chassidish community. But most of the reactions she describes are fairly common behavior in a great many yeshivish families, mine included. My family would have been aghast had I suggested I wanted to attend college. (Lucky for them, they had done a good enough job on me that the thought never seriously occurred to me.)

HindaRochel

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:21 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

mirisim wrote:

She says she was 16 when she went to seminary in Israel.. when I was in seminary the only 16 year old girl was European and she was a minority. Most seminaries don't want girls that young, I know girls who were really younge because they skipped and were told to wait a year. I know at neve u have to be at least 19 .... ...so her story seems a little off to me

I was wondering this also. Why is a 16 year old in seminary?

There are different types of seminaries. Some act as high-schools, as opposed to after high-school.
In any case it did seem to me her stories are honest, balanced and well reasoned. I don't get the same feeling of "attack" as I do with some others, I simply don't.

Furthermore, perhaps rather than attack her in pays to listen; maybe there would be less children and adults finding their way to Unpious and Footsteps? Perhaps if challenges were met with respect and possibly the understanding that a child doesn't have to cut the roast in half just because great-grandma did, there would be less attrition from the frum world.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:35 am

BlueRose52 wrote:

Bambamama wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

It comes across as totally believable. Why is it that everytime someone goes public everyone tries to tear down her story?

Would they have threatened to lock you up, or just given speeches about why it isn't appropriate for you?

SacN

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:40 am

Quote:

Perhaps if challenges were met with respect and possibly the understanding that a child doesn't have to cut the roast in half just because great-grandma did, there would be less attrition from the frum world.

I can't like this enough.
We are Yeshivaish, and I think that there is no reason my kids have to be just like me. I want to teach them that there are many opinions within halacha, and that if they feel uncomfortable with something, they have other options (like college, or army, or denim skirts, etc for example!), with full support from their family. I cannot understand why anyone would feel any differently than this, even including ways of living a frum lifestyle that make me personally uncomfortable. If that is the way for my child to have a close relationship with Hashem, then great!

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 11:55 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Would they have threatened to lock you up, or just given speeches about why it isn't appropriate for you?

I never did anything that bad that compelled my parents to pull out the big guns on me, so I would say no. But there are parents who do make all sorts of threats. It was just a threat by her mother, whether or not she would have carried it out, no one knows. If anyone was exaggerating, it might have been the mother! But these cases of locking someone up for behaving improperly do exist, so it's not unfair that to a young teen it could have had the desired effect.

I was recently told of a case going on RIGHT NOW of a young wife whose husband went OTD and she loves him and wants to stay with him, and her parents have actually LOCKED her in their house (with her baby) and do not let her speak to him or have any contact, etc.

b from nj

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 12:18 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

mirisim wrote:

She says she was 16 when she went to seminary in Israel.. when I was in seminary the only 16 year old girl was European and she was a minority. Most seminaries don't want girls that young, I know girls who were really younge because they skipped and were told to wait a year. I know at neve u have to be at least 19 .... ...so her story seems a little off to me

I was wondering this also. Why is a 16 year old in seminary?

I was 17 at seminary b/c that was when I graduated HS but my best friend skipped a grade & was 16. I don't think it is *that* unusual. Besides, she does seem bright so maybe she was ahead of herself gradewise.

b from nj

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 12:22 pm

SacN wrote:

Quote:

The real problem is when kids want to lead a life that is not at all connected to Halacha which seems to be happening ALL too often. Take a look at fb & you will see lots of lapsed Chassidim & ppl. who have chosen to go OTD. In fact, I just came across a fb group called openly OTD. It is sad to me that we are losing frum ppl. fast & furiously.

Bambamama

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 12:31 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Bambamama wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

It comes across as totally believable. Why is it that everytime someone goes public everyone tries to tear down her story?

There aren't official sects in the yeshivish community like there are in the chassidish community.

I know that and you know that but we all know yeshivish communities aren't as oppressive and insular as Chassidish sects and all the interesting stuff Katie Couric wants to hear. So Leah belongs to a sect, unlike any we know.

mirisim

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 12:46 pm

b from nj wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

mirisim wrote:

She says she was 16 when she went to seminary in Israel.. when I was in seminary the only 16 year old girl was European and she was a minority. Most seminaries don't want girls that young, I know girls who were really younge because they skipped and were told to wait a year. I know at neve u have to be at least 19 .... ...so her story seems a little off to me

I was wondering this also. Why is a 16 year old in seminary?

bright doesn't equal mature.....and 16 sure, it happens, but it is unusual 17 is normal and a year makes a difference....however this seems like a discussion for a different thread

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 12:54 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I think both your examples reflect poor (dysfunctional) parenting and are not characteristic of norms in the yeshivish world.

I'm not sure which examples you're referring to. Do you mean the idea of kicking someone out of a home who isn't behaving properly frum? Do people actually think this is not an accepted view in the yeshivish world?

Fox

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 1:07 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I think both your examples reflect poor (dysfunctional) parenting and are not characteristic of norms in the yeshivish world.

I don't know of any rav who is currently counseling parents to kick their teenagers out their homes unless there is a great deal more to the story (e.g., abusing or manipulating younger siblings). And even in cases where it's determined that the teenager would do better away from home, everyone goes into overdrive to find an appropriate school, boarding situation, etc.

I have no doubt that there are small enclaves or crazy rabbonim who advocate horrible things. I have no doubt that there are certain kehillas that tolerate far less individuality than others. I have no doubt that there are well-meaning rabbonim and rebbetzins who simply get it wrong in general or in particular cases.

But the high level of drama that these stories always involve points far more to bad parenting (and probably parents with their own issues!) than comprehensive indictments of the frum world.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 1:14 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

I think both your examples reflect poor (dysfunctional) parenting and are not characteristic of norms in the yeshivish world.

I was referring to your earlier response, threatening to lock up kids who want to go to college/ locking up a woman whose husband is otd. Those are not reflective of yeshivish norms. Fox explained it better, perhaps.

sequoia

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 1:22 pm

Because it's outside of the norm. If I didn't grow up frum, and if my parents were abusive, am I going to point to that as an indictment of the secular world? Of course not. Because "secular" is nonspecific.

But IF someone is a terrible parent AND they are part of a specific, unusual, identifiable group (nudists, Mormons, chassidim, people obsessed with Homer and Virgil), then the dysfunction is blamed partly on their group.

BlueRose52

Wed, Jun 05 2013, 1:24 pm

Fox wrote:

Allow me to introduce you. In a recent Mishpacha magazine, a prominent Bais Yakov principal advocated kicking out kids who don't behave properly. See http://www.scribd.com/doc/145124935/.

the article wrote:

A rebellious child does not belong in our home until he at least tries to conform and change his actions. He must know that certain actions that cross a "red line" will leave him isolated in a way that his friends won't be able to help him through.

In fact, Rabbi Horowitz even wrote a column addressing this issue years ago. Where do you think these parents are getting this idea from to kick out their kids?

Fox wrote:

I have no doubt that there are small enclaves or crazy rabbonim who advocate horrible things. I have no doubt that there are certain kehillas that tolerate far less individuality than others. I have no doubt that there are well-meaning rabbonim and rebbetzins who simply get it wrong in general or in particular cases.

So why discount that the people telling these stories aren't from these communities?

Fox wrote:

But the high level of drama that these stories always involve points far more to bad parenting (and probably parents with their own issues!) than comprehensive indictments of the frum world.

I would tend to agree that these stories do reflect a lot of bad parenting, but I don't think it happens in a vacuum. I think it needs to be acknowledged that much of what is taught in frum society enables these bad parents.