Kids noticing that my family is not frum

PAMOM

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 1:51 pm

The OP's parents have been misled by "false rabbis"? Definitely the way to promote ahavat Yisrael. Marina has excellent suggestions here that are adaptable in a variety of situations. And does the prohibition against public embarrassment (which this would likely be since explanations have to be made at the time when the children ask) apply only to one kind of Jew?

happybeingamom

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 2:04 pm

OP

Teach your children what is kosher, what hechsherim you use. I wonder if there is a good children's book about kashrus out there that would be a great reference for kids. Knowledge helps the children in being less confused.

Kashrus is not to be compared to food allergies, allergies are a health issue and kashrus is not. Just keep on track with your position and remember no one has the right to undermine the values you are trying to teach your children.

If your child asked not to wear a seatbelt because his friend doesn't wear one and his friend's mother says that is fine, you would still tell your child it isn't safe.

I really think you can have a positive talk with your relatives in asking them to accept your values and not contradict them in regard to your children.

Spend Sunday with the family instead of Shabbos and that way you will avoid these issues.

Shana_H

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 2:11 pm

Dear OP, I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this but I wonder if its at all possible to visit your family as a day trip, take a picnic lunch and eat in the park, your parents can provide the papergoods and the drinks and you can provide the food things, if they live far away can you stay at a cheep motel nearby and get together after Shabbos and Sunday? Most important never lie to your kids, there are all kinds of Jews in the world who hold by different things, and as we all know even within family, Best of luck.

OOTforlife

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 2:13 pm

I think I would say that they love Hashem, sincerely believe they are keeping kosher, and that they are indeed keeping many aspects of kashrut but that they are mistaken on a number of issues and therefore we cannot rely on their conclusions about what is kosher.

I would not frame it in a value-neutral way that allows the child to think that it's just a matter of personal preference or happenstance.

OOTforlife

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 2:20 pm

I also think I would not try to get the relatives to change their explanations or "not contradict" me unless I thought they had a deliberate agenda to change my kids' minds. But if they're just saying what they believe in response to questions and not actually feeding my kids treif, I'd just leave them alone and explain to my family separately. They may as well get used to it because many sincere well-intentioned people out there will be telling them about the "great kosher [style] deli," and so on their entire lives. Especially OOT.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 3:23 pm

I think that there has to be a place between the two poles here, where OP can explain to her kids that her relatives are well-meaning but uninformed (and train the kids not to let them know they know), while still loving them, and respecting them for all their good qualities. You see why IRL coaching could be helpful? ;-)

FASMA

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 4:19 pm

I'll tell you how it goes in my family. At first no one was frum, then my uncle became very frum and pulled the family alittle, so his mother *my grandma), my mother (his sister) became a little frum (shabbos, kosher, wear skirts, but dont cover hair, go to beaches, tv at home, etc), they rest of the family stayed not frum and I became more orthodox like my uncle. My kid is still too young for this but my uncle has managed this so well with his kids ages 7,6 and 4.
They know to always ask if something is kosher when around not so frum family, they know most of the hechsherim around here, they know they are not frum because they werent taught that way but we still love them and respect them, they do things we dont but we are luckier than them because we know what Hashem wants us to do. At first they asked if they were jewish so why they didnt keep shabbos, why they had tvs at home and they wanted a tv as well. The family has been respectfull about only giving the kids things they know are kosher and not having the tv on when they come.
I think its tougher than you because your family thinks they know and they tell your kids they are frum so thats more confusing but you have to tell your kids they say that because they are embarassed to admit they dont know about frumkeit and thats ok.
Another thing I would add is that when you tell your kids no to something, give them something else. My aunt and uncle are very good at this, when they say no to a candy thats not kosher they make sure to go to the store to buy a kosher one; when they say no to tv they put a kosher video on their computer at home, etc. Its important for your kids that they are luckier, not that they live a more boring life.
Good luck to you op!

vintagebknyc

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:07 pm

littles wrote:

Tell your kids that what your extended family is doing is wrong, but we don't have the power to change other people and their beliefs and we tespect and love them anyways. Explain that they have been led to believe by their "rabbis" that what they are doing is right, but that their "rabbis" are not real rabbeim and it is sad, but likely unchangeable. Tell your children that they should feel proud of how they observe Hashem's Torah, even if it is not always as easy or fun and that they are giving Hashem nachas.

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

amother

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:26 pm

chani8 wrote:

The OP said that the food wasn't kosher but the family says it is. So I'm confused.

You're saying they really think the food is kosher? Or is OP saying that if it's not b'datz, it's not kosher? Clarification, please.

If they bought pizza from pizza hut (for example), how would they think that's kosher by anyone's standards? They skipped the pepperoni? LOL.

I think it was from Papa John's, so you're close! Many Conservative Jews who "keep kosher" don't keep kosher out of their homes.

I think my son was responding to my instruction not to take one of the juice boxes offered by my sister, but instead to take one that I brought, because the one he was holding was not kosher. My family likes to draw a distinction between things that might be without a problem in terms of kashrut and things that have a hechsher. In this case, the juice had grape juice as an ingredient. To them, this is just one of those things that "we do differently." But you are right, I need to be more clear to my family that I don't want them confusing my kids with standards that are not their own.

In previous instances (my dad makes hamotzei on pumpkin bread and I tell my kids as people are going to wash to make mezonos and my son asks loudly why Grandpa doesn't know it's mezonos and Grandpa insists it's bread and I tell him the amount of flour in the "bread" makes it cake) this kind of thing leads to hurt feelings and fighting.

amother

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 6:39 pm

I'm the OP

Thank you for all of your support and advice! This issue has been wearing at me for as long as I have had kids!

I appreciate what people have to say about day trips and not spending Shabbos. I'm originally from the Midwest. Now I live in NY/NJ and my family has moved to Wash., D.C. My sister and I are close and I have always wanted my sister's kids and my kids to know each other well and develop a relationship. But it's a 5 hour drive down there, not a day trip kind of thing. When my niece and nephew have b-day parties I want to be there, but if parties are scheduled at 10 am, I need to travel before Shabbos.

Regarding food, my son is pretty good about checking with me first because he does have food allergies. But some things he wouldn't even know about -- like juice. The juice thing was actually traumatic for him. He was apologizing to me all day. I tried to reassure him but he is very medakdek about these things!

Sometimes the disparity goes the other way. My niece and nephew have COMPLETELY non-Jewish names. It actually irks me. So one time we were visiting for Thanksgiving my son was playing with my niece and he says "You are like the mitzrim because you did not keep the names of the Jewish people and we are like Bnai Israel." My sister and I were cracking up, both because of what he said, but also because my niece probably thought he was speaking a foreign language!

bamamama

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 7:26 pm

amother wrote:

chani8 wrote:

huh? The amount of flour in a quick bread is not that different from the amount of flour in a loaf of challah.

bamamama

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 7:33 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

In many cases, PF, I would agree with you. This family is observant conservative. It sounds like they follow Conservative shitta which permits unhechshered cheese and grape juice. So, they aren't uninformed. They have rejected the Orthodox position on halacha. I know people here find it problematic to think of C and R Jews as having rejected the O position on things, but that's what it is.

littles

Fri, Jun 07 2013, 7:50 pm

Quote:

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

Would say? I have said this and think it is necessary to say. I have trained my children to know what hechshers are, where to find them, and which we use. And that even well meaning people who think things are kosher don't always know what they are talking about. Maybe it's my life experience, but when my mom offered my 5 year old son altoids and he insisted that they were not kosher and she said yes they are, he asked to see the package and saw that there was no hechsher. This would never have happened if I had taught him that grandma is Jewish and everyone has their own level of kashrus. My children from a very young age know that their relatives do not observe mitzvos and STILL love and respect them, it's all in how you explain it. If anything, my kids have awakened a love of yiddishkeit in their grandparents and great-grandparents because even though young, they have a strong sense of pride about what they believe and do. And yes, there are some things that are right for Jews, whether they are aware of it or not, and others that are wrong. I want to raise Torah observant Jews with a strong sense and understanding of Jewish ideology and I have no shame about that.

amother

Sat, Jun 08 2013, 9:59 pm

bamamama wrote:

huh? The amount of flour in a quick bread is not that different from the amount of flour in a loaf of challah.

Sorry, what I meant is that the flour to liquid ratio is too low to be considered bread. The pumpkin puree, the eggs, craisins, sugar count as liquid. Also, the pumpkin bread, even though it was served as a sort of appetizer, was not central to the meal, as bread many times is.

amother

Sat, Jun 08 2013, 10:06 pm

littles wrote:

Quote:

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

I wouldn't tell my kids that my parents and sister were mislead, but I do like the idea of reminding them about kosher symbols before going to their houses. I also want to convey to my kids that they are special and fortunate to be frum Jews, because they see some of the leniencies to be pretty appealing.

greenfire

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:39 am

if you make it an issue it will be an issue ... I can't imagine your children not noticing there are differences in people ...

instead of addressing them when you're at their house and battling with your family ... either stop going there on shabbos

or beforehand remind them that we don't do everything that they do and we don't eat everything that they eat and they should come to you to ask what's okay quietly

if you want to mention the issue of kraft cheese with your family, do it with a btw - the reason we don't eat kraft is because of the processing with rennet which can use animals to derive same and how it needs a mashgiach and kosher symbol and that it's not just simple milk

eating pizza & the like - well this is a more difficult situation because unlike comparing cholov yisrael to chalav stam - it's not okay to eat just anything not made with mamash treif at a restaurant - it drives me mad when people think it's okay

there's enough stuff to go around that is kosher - no need to make yourselves crazy ... bring your own kosher stuff when going there and when they order pizza, etc.

amother

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 2:50 pm

Yes, yes, this is a very common issue. Many people become religious and have to deal with this, it's not unusual at all. It's so hard isn't it - I have so much admiration for people like you - it's one thing to change your way of life, let alone to face up to parents, having to break away from them yet at the same time show you still love them, respect them, and tread that fine balance. My friend just married into a Lubavitch family and her family are TOTALLY secular, and I know what a huge challenge it was and still is, though much less now it's been accepted. Hashem loves all of you very much.

Regarding the family I would probably just tell them that I decided to take on all of the laws. So although grandma and grandpa are observant Jews and wonderful beautiful people, I just know more about what can and can't be done, because I learnt about it more.

vintagebknyc

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 3:08 pm

littles wrote:

Quote:

you would say this to your children, really? this is HORRIBLE, shameful really.

because you're telling them that your family's rabbi isn't a REAL rabbi, and that what your family is doing is wrong.

can't you say your family is different and believes different things? are the only REAL rabbis frum rabbis? it's judgemental, it's factually incorrect, and it makes your children disrespect your family's religious leaders.

chocolate moose

Sun, Jun 09 2013, 6:01 pm

Sure it's common. I had that too when my kids were little. Everything was a battle and picking and choosing. Television. Goyishkeit. I never went for Shabbos, though; we either went to shluchim or went home.

Washington DC might not be a day trip from NY but if you leave on a Sunday and go home on Wed or Thursday, it's not bad.