step children and negiah?

grace413

Tue, Oct 01 2013, 1:58 pm

sequoia wrote:

I can completely understand the prohibition of yichud and negiah for a stepfather and stepdaughter (hello Nabokov). What I can't understand is the prohibition for adopted children, especially those who were adopted as infants. What, according to halacha they have NO parents?

If they were born Jewish, the bio parent remain the halachic parents. If they were born non-Jewish and converted they do not have any halachic parents. Yep.

Isramom8

Tue, Oct 01 2013, 2:50 pm

grace413 wrote:

sequoia wrote:

If they were born Jewish, the bio parent remain the halachic parents. If they were born non-Jewish and converted they do not have any halachic parents. Yep.

Thanks. I was going to say that they may not actually have halachic parents, but that seemed offensive somehow. Nothing shameful about reality. The issue is how we deal with it in each specific situation.

sequoia

Tue, Oct 01 2013, 3:12 pm

greenfire wrote:

sequoia wrote:

What I can't understand is the prohibition for adopted children, especially those who were adopted as infants.

totally agree

sequoia wrote:

(hello Nabokov)

hello who? while I found a page of his writings and story ... I don't get the connection or surely didn't find any on-line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Nabokov

The reference was to Lolita with regard to stepfathers and stepdaughters.

grace413

Tue, Oct 01 2013, 3:21 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

grace413 wrote:

sequoia wrote:

If they were born Jewish, the bio parent remain the halachic parents. If they were born non-Jewish and converted they do not have any halachic parents. Yep.

I agree with you that there is nothing shameful about reality, but not everybody agrees. Vehamayvin yavin.

ora_43

Tue, Oct 01 2013, 4:18 pm

marina wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Is expected or could happen. Unfortunately, there ARE weirdos Sad

Anything can happen. A father can be s-xually attracted to his own child, that's incest. But halacha doesn't expect this problem- that's why a father can hug his daughter. Here, apparently, s-xual attraction btw a stepparent and a child is considered more likely.

AFAIK, statistics show step-whatever s-xual abuse is significantly more likely, and one theory people have come up with is (in non-technical terms) that there are fewer "icky" signals coming from your brain when it's not someone you've grown up with/raised.

Remember that a "stepparent" can be someone your parent marries when you're already a teenager. For that matter, I've met families where the stepparent is significantly closer in age to the nearly-adult child than to the parent s/he married (that's probably less common in the frum world, but it's still a possible scenario).

I think it makes sense that it go based on how young the child is, how much they need affection, etc, and not just based on marriage.

marina

Thu, Oct 03 2013, 1:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Is expected or could happen. Unfortunately, there ARE weirdos Sad

Ok, but this halacha applies to a three year old girl. Right? So a stepfather is expected to be attracted to his 3 year old daughter? How is that not creepy? How is that not normalizing pedophelia?

Ruchel

Thu, Oct 03 2013, 1:33 pm

I always found 3 too early for shomer negia etc though it's a protection.
I do notice that many FFB, very frum families do NOT enforce it at "written down age" especially inside family. My 9 year old chassidish cousin sits on my lap. Ok maybe he doesn't know of ages, but somehow a kid who calls chalav stam treif I think knows.

I see some things, like "not passing salt", "not sitting together in a small boat", as a barrier on a barrier on a barrier.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 03 2013, 1:53 pm

marina wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Is expected or could happen. Unfortunately, there ARE weirdos Sad

Ok, but this halacha applies to a three year old girl. Right? So a stepfather is expected to be attracted to his 3 year old daughter? How is that not creepy? How is that not normalizing pedophelia?

I got two words for you. "Woody Allen". Puke

Just wrong on SO many levels!

For a frum example that was actually permitted, there was a recent case where unrelated, adopted brother and sister married each other. The rabbonim ruled that although it was awkward and kinda weird, halachically they couldn't find any prohibitions against it.

Just today, Iran passed this "progressive" bit of legislation: http://www.aina.org/news/20131002124905.htm Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years. shock

According to Sadr, officials in Iran have tried to play down the s-xual part of such marriages, saying it is in the bill to solve the issue of hijab [head scarf] complications when a child is adopted. An adopted daughter is expected to wear the hijab in front of her father, and a mother should wear it in front of her adopted son if he is old enough, Sadr said.

Yeah, I'm sure it's ALL about the hijab. Rolling Eyes

ora_43

Thu, Oct 03 2013, 3:40 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, but this halacha applies to a three year old girl. Right? So a stepfather is expected to be attracted to his 3 year old daughter? How is that not creepy? How is that not normalizing pedophelia?

I think it's silly to say "expected to be attracted." He's not allowed to hug a 95-year-old woman, either, that doesn't mean the rabbis all thought he'd be unable to control his animal attraction to geriatrics.

The laws re: affectionate touch are just general guidelines for what's socially appropriate, not a set-in-stone list of members of the opposite gender that a normal member of your gender is expected to find s-xy (all of them age 9-grave, all the time... Wink

).

AFAIK, 3 is not a set-in-stone rule, and in general things go according to the circumstances. Sometimes a young child is basically growing up as someone else's child and occasionally seeing her stepfather, in which case hugging might be weird, sometimes he's essentially her father, in which case hugging might be essential. It really varies.

amother

Thu, Oct 03 2013, 4:37 pm

I don't understand, she is saying she won't touch the child if the Rav doesn't allow but what if the child comes up and hugs her? Will she push him away? I would think that that would be horrible to the child's mind and neshama, and would hope that Rabbonim would see and be lenient with that in a familial situation. I don't understand why this is forbidden in a family setting esp before Bar/Bas Mitzvah, but I am not a halachik expert. My daughter is above Bas mitzvah and she still kisses(on the cheek) and hugs my DH on occasion. But he has been her father since she was little when her father died. She is very needy in the hugs department and I know if it was severed she would be really hurt.

(anonymous because of giving details about my family)