Heartbreaking Tablet Article - What can we do?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 1:48 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Maybe they should assign a person to keep in touch with the OTD person, to argue, to counsel, to comfort, to be a sponsor on the way back if that is ever wanted. To smooth continuity, so the ties don't have to be cut so utterly. A go-between and a source of help. Let us call him or her a Searcher.

You have a point that people who go OTD from haredim shouldn't be written off totally, and thrown away.

But the OTD person would have to go along. He/she would in turn have to agree not to make war on the community where their children still live. Making war means showing up in jeans, eating at treif restaurants when you know your wife reads the credit card bills, and in general being confrontational and unholier-than-thou.

It is not nice to parade about how wonderful one is, in one's fabulous enlightenment, and play "unholier than thou". I'm so cool, I have found the light, you're so benighted, blah blah.

Perhaps there is nothing available for older leavers, who need to be helped with the transition, to minimize their children's suffering. Someone to offer sympathy but also realism.

The supports for leavers that exist seem to only be aimed at young unmarrieds. So maybe something else is needed, as the title of this thread asks for.

Dolly, if all family members who left the fold, for whatever reason and from whatever denomination of judaism were just loved by their parents, unconditionally, things would look a lot different they do from the article this is all from.

I have a chassidish cousin, in america. Does not matter from what chassidic sect he is from. His son got married, maybe 19 years old. Within a year he was divorced. I never asked what happened, it was not my business. This son is now for sure not chassidic (does not wear the garb, and other reasons) but the parents have not turned him away at all. he is welcome in their home and the love that I saw between the parents and their son was palpable. He knows that his parents will love him, no matter what (as they told us as well). This is the way it should be, not "assigning someone to stay in touch with the OTD family member" how terrible that sounds.
UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, no matter if the child is eating treif, wearing jeans, in now sporting green hair or is driving a motor bike and n shabbat at that. If there is open communication between parents and children and unconditional love, things would already be very different.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 1:50 pm

amother wrote:

You Barbara think it is insane and that it doesn't make a difference.
You don't either get to control anybody.
People may have valid opinion beside your own.
Not everyone goes by just strict halacha - hope that is not news to you.

no, amother, not everyone goes by just strict halacha. but as in parenting, you have to choose your battles. choosing to cut off a father because he wears jeans or anything similarly permissibly by halacha is STUPID. yup, I said it. and if you say that these things are bad enough to cut the father out of the children's lives, you are essentially saying that your chumras are holier than Hashem's halachas. kefira, honey. it's also assur to add commandments. it's also completely ignoring "kabed es avicha v'es imecha." now, I learned that specifically not doing a mitzvas aseh is worse than being over a mitzvas lo sa-aseh. hmm. so your chumra just earned you how many chata'im? I'll let you do the math.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 1:59 pm

Yes, but I don't get that way in front of people I love who didn't go BT as I did.

Anyway, I am not disdainful of my old life, or the old me. I have not thrown away my old self. But my old self has to get up when my new self comes into the room, and cede authority. But we are all family.

BT, teshuva, means everything you did before teshuva is fine now, because it was part of you getting to where you are now. There are no dark G-d-free corners. G-d was right there stroking my hair when I didn't know any better than to eat pork chops. One little step at at time, one little step at a time.

You are talking out of non-chassidish thinking, I think, and I am talking and operating out of chassidish thinking.

I do very little condemning of anybody or anything. Just mean MILs, stuff like that. I am wary of CIO, am anti anti vax, pro tsnius in a general way, and favor slightly looser smarriage practices. That's all mild and mainstream.

BlueRose52

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:05 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

choosing to cut off a father because he wears jeans or anything similarly permissibly by halacha is STUPID. yup, I said it.

Seriously, I don't think anyone of these parents are being cut off specifically because of jeans, or because of different hechsherim or because of any of these reasons being pointed at. These are just EXCUSES that are used to justify the cutting off, but the real reason why they are cut off- it's simply because they aren't frum. That is the real reason for all this. Plain and simple. And again, that's why no matter how much the ex-frum person tries to accommodate the frum parent, it won't matter. Because no matter how much he pretends to be frum, no chassidic parent wants their child to be hanging around, or even worse, being parented by, someone they view as a sheigetz (or shiksa).

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:05 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It is not nice to parade about how wonderful one is, in one's fabulous enlightenment, and play "unholier than thou". I'm so cool, I have found the light, you're so benighted, blah blah.

Total straw (wo)man. No one here is talking about doing that whatsoever.

Oh no, no poster here. Chas v.sh. But some of the people in the articles cited seemed to be doing that. Why else would a guy show up in jeans where he knew there was no good reason to, except to upset people? You don't go to a wedding in your gardening clothes. You dress for the occasion to respect others. I am sure he still owned a few pairs of unexceptional pants that would cause no comment one way or the other. But he had to fly his flag. He certainly knew what he was doing. He thinks about what he wears to a job interview, I will wager. He is not airily above all that image stuff.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:10 pm

Shabbat, there are no children in that picture. I am sure the parents are heroes anyway, but he might not be allowed free hand with his children if he had any.

An ex-chassidic parent should at least be MO or LW MO or Just Plain Frum, but no further left than that.

People do LOTS of things because they have children.

There are trips offered to new mothers to foreign climes, fascinating trips for work, that I have seen them refuse because the baby was too young to take and too young to leave.

It's called sacrifice. So? Our mothers walked the floor with us. That wasn't fun either. We have all been a burden. Too bad.

What you have to do for your children YOU DO.

No?

That's why I have trouble sympathizing here.

BlueRose52

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:13 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It is not nice to parade about how wonderful one is, in one's fabulous enlightenment, and play "unholier than thou". I'm so cool, I have found the light, you're so benighted, blah blah.

Total straw (wo)man. No one here is talking about doing that whatsoever.

Uhh... maybe because after a while of not being frum wearing jeans is just the normal thing you do? You don't do it to upset people, you just do it because that's how you dress.

Look, I won't deny that there are OTD people who are very "in your face" about their new lifestyle, and that is often disrespectful. But that really is not what we are talking about here. We're talking about parents who are trying to be reasonably accommodating in order to maintain a relationship with their children. Stop bringing in irrelevant scenarios to distract from the main issue.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:14 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Im sorry but if there are truly people out there that believe that if their children see their father wearing jeans, instead of the chassidish garb, that they will get confused etc, and things will go downhill from there, they are truly not seeing the bigger picture. That is not what sacrificing for one's children means.

And as for my example, the boy became non chassidic AFTER he got divorced. My whole point was that his parents were giving him unconditional love and there was open communication, that was my entire point.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:14 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

choosing to cut off a father because he wears jeans or anything similarly permissibly by halacha is STUPID. yup, I said it.

I do understand that this is the case. however, I have met many people who can't differentiate between something that is "not done" and something that is assur. and I suspect that there are those who can't differentiate between "not frum" and "wears jeans." and regardless of whether or not the person in question is religious, if all one sees that is questionable is a pair of jeans or square matzas, I see a heaping up of avairas to be considered.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:14 pm

amother wrote:

So be open and honest. This man is being deprived of his right to see his own children not because he doesn't follow HALACHA, but because he doesn't want to dress like a Chassid. And it wouldn't matter what else he did. If he's not a Chassid, he's not going to see his kids.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Mine is that it is cruel and insane.

bamamama

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:17 pm

1. I can understand continuing to raise kids with a set of beliefs they were brought up with up to a certain age. I can get that it should be expected of non-custodial parents to respect those beliefs insofar as it does not interfere with his relationship with his kids (ex. if the kids grew up keeping kosher, the non-custodial parent should accommodate this. If the kids grew up thinking secular Jews are the devil, the non-custodial parent does NOT have to accommodate this because it is empirically wrong to teach such things to children).

2. When the kids get old enough (I.e. when they are old enough to ask the question), they may wonder what/why the other parent believes (speaking from a paradigm where the kids were born into O Judaism). This is reasonable and the parent can share with them because O Judaism only retains validity as long as it can stand up to being scrutinized from every side. If this idea concerns you, then you need to ask yourselves what the heck you are doing living as an O Jew.

3. To the chasidim on this thread who feel attacked: I really feel compassion for you. You much have either tremendous fear or contempt for the world outside your enclave. This can't be a comfortable way to live. I'm sorry you are subject to such stress in the name of religion. It's not right at all.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:22 pm

As for jeans not being against halacha, in a context where dress clothes are expected, and jeans are regarded as farm gear with no farm in sight, or, the national garb of another nation, I think there is plenty of halacha forbidding jarring other Jews' communities' customary practices.

Don't you have to respect the local hashkafa and nusach? Have I got that right?

I am not educated enough to cite sources however. Out of my depth a little, here.

But my common sense tells me when somebody is pulling somebody else's chain.

I knew a bride's sister who wore a respectable but ordinary day dress to the wedding, to show how unimpressed she was with the whole thing. It was a nice dress but it wasn't wedding attire. Everybody got the point.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:25 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Dolly, there is NO halacha that says that just because community x does not wear jeans, if you as a guest comes into that community, you can not wear jeans.

Please do not make up halacha. It just is not so.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:28 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I respect others' local practices.

I'm MO. Very MO. Every so often, a man shows up in our shul with a streimel. A huge, serious streimel. I've never met him, but he seems like a nice fellow, and always warmly greets people. So are you saying that, by dressing in the manner that he deems appropriate for his community, but which we certainly view as the garb of another nation, he is violating halacha?

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:30 pm

Of course it will jar the children.

Of course people dress for the occasion.

If he were taking a nice new woman to lunch at a nice restaurant you can bet anything you want to bet he would put on dress pants. THAT's an important person.

No sympathy.

I always dressed spiffier than my usual garb to visit my grandmother. Doesn't everybody?

If he cared enough, he would say to his buds, oops, I have to go change, I have my children in an hour, and we raised them chassidish back when I was that. They need that from me. They need to see me that way. They didn't ask to get born chassidish and that's who they are.

It is important to respect people for who they are. Children before parents.

It's not equal. It's not, tonight I will get you your milk, and tomorrow, because fair is fair, you have to get your own milk, and bring me a beer.

Waa. I want a beer. Waa.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:32 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

dolly, chasidic garb was not originally jewish, afaik. look up the origins of the style. also, the man no longer lives in the community. don't tell me you'd expect me to dress chassidish for a visit to a chassidishe community.

as for the bride's sister, oh well. btdt. I once wore a less than appropriately formal dress to a wedding because the only formal dress I had available had a slit up to the knee, and I thought that would be less respectful to the family than my less formal, out-of-place dress. yes, I got some odd looks. yes, it was embarrassing. did she announce that this was why she wore it? did she wear a sign saying "this is a stupid wedding?" did she curse everyone out as often as possible? oh, wait. she wore a less-than-appropriately-formal dress. terrible. but she was dressed, right? and the bride and groom got married? mazal tov.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:35 pm

Wait, a shtreimel is not garb of another nation.

It is a garb of another hashkafa within Judaism. You and Mr. Shtreimel are praying to the same G-d. Proof of that is that he is in the synagogue with you.

The non frum leavers who want to take their children to the movies or the zoo aren't praying to that G-d any more, at least not in any hashkafa that is Torah compliant.

Jeans is not the garb of any Torah compliant hashkafa. It is the garb of plenty of people of all ethnicities who live and think another way. Meaning, nice citizens of the country, but religious strangers.

Now, how is that fine, if you want the kids to stay religious? It isn't fine.