Heartbreaking Tablet Article - What can we do?

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:38 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Of course it will jar the children.

Of course people dress for the occasion.

If he were taking a nice new woman to lunch at a nice restaurant you can bet anything you want to bet he would put on dress pants. THAT's an important person.

No sympathy.

I always dressed spiffier than my usual garb to visit my grandmother. Doesn't everybody?

If he cared enough, he would say to his buds, oops, I have to go change, I have my children in an hour, and we raised them chassidish back when I was that. They need that from me. They need to see me that way. They didn't ask to get born chassidish and that's who they are.

It is important to respect people for who they are. Children before parents.

It's not equal. It's not, tonight I will get you your milk, and tomorrow, because fair is fair, you have to get your own milk, and bring me a beer.

Waa. I want a beer. Waa.

1) some men take women out to nice restaurants, and they wear jeans. and the women still date them.

2) no, I don't dress up to go see my grandmother. nor does she dress up when I come over.

3) got it. so he has to keep his long payos and untrimmed beard for when his kids come over, right? because it might jar them to see him without.

have some beer. it's really good, I hear. I prefer blackberry brandy myself.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:39 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Wait, a shtreimel is not garb of another nation.

It is a garb of another hashkafa within Judaism. You and Mr. Shtreimel are praying to the same G-d. Proof of that is that he is in the synagogue with you.

The non frum leavers who want to take their children to the movies or the zoo aren't praying to that G-d any more, at least not in any hashkafa that is Torah compliant.

Jeans is not the garb of any Torah compliant hashkafa. It is the garb of plenty of people of all ethnicities who live and think another way. Meaning, nice citizens of the country, but religious strangers.

Now, how is that fine, if you want the kids to stay religious? It isn't fine.

Dolly, what good stuff are you smoking??? Really!!!!!

Yes, a shtreimel is the garb of, Russia, a loooong time ago, that the chassidim took on.

And yes, jeans are fine for a torah compliant person. Where have you been? Under a rock. Im sorry, but I live a torah compliant life as do everyone on my yishuv and many many many many men here wear jeans. Ill tell you a secrect, they also wear shorts sometimes.

Jeans does not equal not frum. If you believe that, theres a bridge I want to sell you... Rolling Eyes

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:41 pm

They were all very, very wealthy.

This man is not a guest.

A guest with some manners and a few dollars would buy reasonably similar looking pants, and anyway that doesn't apply here. This guy has the stuff.

If you visited a chassidic area, you might not adopt their costume, but you wouldn't conflict with it either. You would wear your own style, but long enough, loose enough around the flanks, and a sleeve, and perhaps a scarf at the neck. You would leave any kicky spikes at home and go flatter, and your hair is already covered probably.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:43 pm

Growing wrote:

In the specific case being discussed the father is from Skver. In Skver as in other chasidish communities jeans is not considered frum at all. When a story from someone in your yishuv goes to press we will discuss it.

Something not being considered frum is not the same as something being against halacha, as far as I know.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:44 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

actually, the shtreimel may not be jewish by origin. look it up.

the non-frum leavers who want to take kids to the zoo/movies aren't praying to that G-d anymore? I don't think you can make that statement. if they do pray (and some certainly do), who do you think they pray to?

as for jeans, jeans are just normal. plenty of men wear jeans. not all hashkafas dictate dress code down to minute details. and I doubt it would all be fine if he wore dress pants with a patterned shirt, or a yarmulka of a different color, or tzitzis tucked in. it's all external nit-picking, dolly.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:44 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

My husband wears jeans. My DS wears jeans. And we go to movies AND the zoo. (Doesn't half of Chassidic Brooklyn go to the zoo chol hamoed?) That means I'm not religious? Darn. I wish you would have told me before I put out all that money for shul membership.

Maya

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:45 pm

Growing wrote:

Where that father comes from, wearing a sheitel without a hat on top of it is also considered not frum. Doesn't mean it is so.

Shana_H

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:54 pm

The taking away of a child from its parent is tantamount to murder! Unless that parent is found to be a danger to the child, as in the child will suffer physical or mental abuse, I don't believe that lack of religious observance means a child is in mortal danger. I understand that the intermarriage rate is high and that people are leaving the fold in droves but how do you think these kids are gonna react when they become old enough to see the truth thru all the lies?

Growing

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:05 pm

Maya wrote:Where that father comes from, wearing a sheitel without a hat on top of it is also considered not frum. Doesn't mean it is so

The discussion is not if it is so or not so. The fact is that Shulem Deen, author of quoted article linked by the OP, grew up in Sver and lived his life as the Skver do. Then he left the fold. He is very aware that jeans is NOT proper attire in Skver. Skver reacted the way they chose to. And ladies on Imamother are up in arms.

I have news for everyone:
The Skvere and the rest of the chasidish crowd are going to continue doing what they are doing - which is what they believe is good and righteous. I hate to break it to you. These chasidim have withstood the test of time notwithstanding all chasidish individuals who chose other paths in Yidishkeit or left the fold altogether.

Many chasid bashing posters are really not intimately familiar with chasidim or have private grievances which they are airing at every opportunity, against the leaders or rules of chasidus.

FYI fellow posters: Chasidim like the rest of humanity have personality flaws aside from the flaws 'in the system'. But these flaws don't have to reflect all Chasidim, all Chasidishe Rebbes, or all Chasidish minhagim.

To most Chasidim, exposing their offspring to a parent who no longer believes in G-d is unacceptable. If you feel otherwise you are entitled to . But if this is indeed a free country Chasidim are entitled to their beliefs just as well.

imamiri

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:11 pm

Growing wrote:

You are right. It is a free country and you are entitled to be emotionally abusive to your children and ex spouse by denying the children access to one of their parents and saying cruel things about that parent to the children in hopes of turning them against them.

It is your right to be a depraved disturbed human parading around thinking you have a direct line to G-d's office. And hopefully more and more people learn of this depravity.

Maya

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:15 pm

Growing wrote:

I have news for everyone:
The Skvere and the rest of the chasidish crowd are going to continue doing what they are doing - which is what they believe is good and righteous. I hate to break it to you. These chasidim have withstood the test of time notwithstanding all chasidish individuals who chose other paths in Yidishkeit or left the fold altogether.

I have news for you: The modern-day Chassidim have not yet withstood the test of time. This radicalization of the system, and the extreme intolerance, insularity and egotism, is new. And trust me, it will implode. The current system is not sustainable in the long run. It's going to end; I only pray that it be in my lifetime so I can see it happen. If something doesn't give, it won't be around long.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:17 pm

I don't care if all your husbands wear jeans. In this particular context the jeans were a defiance.

The facial hair problem is his row to hoe. He might have to pony-tail it, with his payot behind his ears on his own time, pulling them forward to visit his kids, and keeping his natural beard for the sake of his children. Freaky, man. Deal with it.

We have all done much harder things than that for our children.

I MEANT the kind of restaurant where you would NOT wear jeans. There ARE TOO such places.

You brushed right past my job interview remark. Depending on the job, you can bet he would wear whatever wouldn't bother anybody.

Plain and simple, you stay frum for your kids. You can still take them to the zoo but you might bring your own snacks.

If you think it's all bunk, don't get amazed that makes conflict with their religious mother, and with them too.

The children, remember, are frum people. Little ffbs, all of them. Though small, they are people. It is churlish to offend them.

I suspect the insecure ones here aren't the chassidim, but the leavers, who worry what they now think can't be right, because it isn't good enough for the children.

If they were more secure in their beliefs, there would be no drama, it seems to me. What are they defending with such protective passion? Something weak? That can't be examined from all angles without getting its certainties and feelings hurt?

I like fruit brandies, too.

imamiri

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:18 pm

Growing wrote:

Hmmm
What is a person who calls others a disturbed depraved human being called?
Doesn't make a difference.
I won't resort to name calling and bashing others because they have different beliefs than I do.

It is depraved, that is morally corrupt, to deny a child access to a parent. And to say terrible things about that parent to the child.

EmesOrNT

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:20 pm

I kinda agree with Dolly. I see no reason for the OTD parent to rub it in the kids faces. Jeans are really not accepted in that culture. It's not that difficult to wear another pair of pants.

And I know, it's not about the pants. The point is, that there's no reason to make waves. I don't think the kids are asking him what he does on his off time. See your kids, do your thing, be respectful.