Situation in home life of DC's friend

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 8:23 am

imasinger wrote:

amother wrote:

angelinheaven wrote:

amother wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

Why do you need to do anything?

My children are being brought up in a frum environment and the casual comments about them sharing a bedroom and taking trips together is shocking.

I don't want my children to accept this as OK. I want my children innocent.

My opinion about this household is now tainted. Do I share this with others whose children are being exposed to this?

Interesting that you say that your children are being bought up in a frum environment yet you ask if its ok to speak lashon hara about someone else. Frankly, its no ones business what that couple is doing so stay out of it completely and keep other people out of it as well.

You are allowed to speak LH of you are protecting someone. In this case I would have wanted this info before DC was friends.

DC being exposed to the acceptance of pre marital relations upsets me.

I'm confused. You say you wish you had been warned, but your DH DID warn you, no?

I am torn here. In a later post, you mention that not only your DH, but also your rebbitzin told you not to encourage the friendship. I was going to tell you that since some aspect of your question is halachic, you need to AYLOR. You probably still should.

I feel for you. In some sense, you feel that damage has been done to your DC's innocence, and you feel guilty for not having listened to your DH and rebbitzen earlier. Do ask the shaila, but since you posted it here, I'll add my 2 cents as well.

IME, teens are starting to think for themselves. As kids grow up and become more independent, parent protection changes. It is no longer possible to be secure that a teen is completely sheltered. The very best of camps and schools still have situations where teens can learn more than a parent might want. What can we do? We can TALK to our teens, asking them questions, and helping them frame their experiences.

Maybe something like, "Friend should not be talking about Parent's living situation like that; it's not appropriate. I hope someone can let Friend know that. If I have a chance, I'll try to say something."

Don't assume that either child knows anything concrete about premarital relations. Or that either one wants to. Generally, kids are grossed out to think of their parents' private lives. The fact that Friend mentions that Dad's fiancee is sleeping over tonight doesn't mean that there is any clue of anything other than a night's rest under the same roof.

You can also make sure to be there when this friend is with your DC. Teach your DC to be kind, but also self protective.

In terms of warning others -- I feel strongly that your guilt at not having listened to your DH and rebbitzin may be the cause of this idea. Please don't do it.

In this day and age, I think we can add children who are suffering from the upheaval of their parents' recent divorce to the list of those that Hashem specially protects. They are uniquely vulnerable. Causing them to lose their friendships and social network at such a time, and because of a parent's bad behavior rather than their own, is an affront, and those cries and tears will be quickly heard in shamayim.

Yes, I have been warned repeatedly which is why I feel so betrayed. I choose to let the friendship continue. DC's parent made fusses about bowling because of the mixed setting even though I would be there and could guarantee that I could have both lanes with the same gender.

I only wanted to warn one particular friend who I am close to. We never spoke about the divorce situation or indeed DC. We put similar restrictions on the friendship which only came to light upon the parent getting engaged. For example all sleepovers at my house.

If I ask a sheila I could get an answer I don't agree with when I simmer down. I need to calm down. As I said, I feel my trust was betrayed.

ITA the DCs haven't realized what goes on behind closed doors. All comments about the living arrangement were innocent. I believe they were truthful. There were several comments. I think DC is happy to have a two parent living arrangement and didn't realize that it doesn't exist.

I can't be with DCs all the time.

I don't want DC to suffer which is why I stood up for DC. It is also why I haven't told DH. Right now I feel like I am at my breaking point. The house is not a kosher home.

imasinger

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 8:40 am

amother wrote:

So, who betrayed your trust?

And what about your betrayal of your DH's trust in you?

I think you are right that the first step is to cool down. At some point, you owe your DH the truth and an apology for not having heeded him. But maybe let things shake down a bit more, first.

How soon are they getting married?

My4Jewels

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 8:41 am

Wait is it literally not kosher as in traif? or not kosher as in I dont approve the behavior?

Also just to play devils advocate ..I know a friends parents where the fiance slept over and they took family trips together but the parents were not actually sleeping together. So it's true that you literally do not know what is going on behind closed doors and just maybe it's nothing.

I do not think it is your responsibility to trash the family. I mean really what purpose does that serve? It's not like you are protecting other children from a child molester. It is loshon hara in my opinion because it's not protecting anyone from anything. Protecting other people from knowing that people may sleep together before they are married is not protecting them from anything so it's loshon hara as far as I am concerned.

I agree no sleepovers at their house. But I dont know that you can forbid your teen from hanging with this otherwise good child. Unless that child is recommending that everyone sleep around including your dc I say it doesnt sound like a bad friendship.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 8:48 am

freidasima wrote:

How old exactly is your child and the other child?
And what is a lot more disturbing to me was your first comment that your husband is against this friend milechaschila because his/her parents are divorced.

In general, does your family have a problem accepting divorce? Or was it this specific divorce? Why? Divorce is muttar in our religion and even suggested in various situations just to avoid problems of aroyos, mamzerus etc. that might come up is the couple remains married, unhappy and thus tempted.

Now for the situation you describe. You say the finace sleeps over. In the same bedroom? Are you certain? Did you see this? Is this child who is telling the story giving details? Is the family frum? Is the fiance frum? Is this an "eidus" that one can halochically rely on?

If you want to discourage the friendship for whatever reason it is your preroggative to do so, but ask yourself first why you are doing this, what "innocent" means to you and whether it's not an opportunity to teach your child that what goes on in other people's homes is no one's business unless it is hurting a third party, just like what goes on in your home with closed front door is no one's business unless it is hurting a third party. And maybe teach your child not to believe everything he/she is told either.

They are teenagers. My husband has a close friend who is divorced ironically. He and his DCs have a home here. I never asked DH why the acceptance of one situation and not the other. If DCs were little or DC wasn't being exposed I could care less what goes on behind closed doors.

DC is providing enough details that it is a certainty they are in the same bedroom overnight. The sharing the bedroom was mentioned several times always in connection with something else. I glossed over it and I don't believe DCs caught the significance. By addressing it, I would risk bringing attention to it. It is the very acceptance and normalcy of the situation that is upsetting.

We send to the same school which is a frum school. I would be upset if a parent ate treiff. I expect the parent body to be vetted just like I was.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 9:03 am

imasinger wrote:

amother wrote:

I feel my trust was betrayed because of heskofukic conversations. I feel further betrayed by the parent being hypocritical. I vetted the home more than usual because of DH's feelings so we discussed things. We hold a similar level in many areas. I bent over backwards so the parent felt more a part of the community.

I haven't betrayed DH yet. I just got this info. I made a judgement call to accept DC into my home. If I tell DH when I am this upset DC will be banned.

I should add that I have been an ear for DC for years which makes this harder. I genuinely like DC. DC is a really good kid.

The Chassunah is next year. I am not upset they are not SN only that they are not private about it.

Shana_H

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 9:37 am

I've come to realize in my "old age" that I may not agree with nor approve of everything my friends, neighbours and aquaintances do, it's not for me to judge, I've had a very tumultuous life myself thus far, I'm very far from "the norm" I/we teach our children by setting a good example, we teach them that there are millions of people in the world and for a million different reasons we are not alike, for some people it's of the utmost importance they be SN prior to marriage, some cover with a hat, a snood, a teichel, a shaitle, some not at all, some people are Cholov Yisroel, some eat fish out, we cant keep our children esp our teens in a bubble. We can only hope we've instilled in them good kosher values so that their yiddishkeit will not waver when they encounter the "real" world.I don't know if I'm right or wrong, unfortunately my kids didn't come with instructions.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Oct 27 2013, 9:29 pm

Shana_H wrote:

I love this comment SO much!

DD learned much younger than I wish, that some people have babies before they get married. I simply told her that WE follow Torah, and that we know that the best thing to do is to get married first, before we touch people we aren't related to. It's Hashem's plan for us to have a happy life. That said, we also have to let other people decide what they want to do, because Hashem gave us free will. What other people do is not our job to judge, that's between them and Hashem.

If my sheltered 8yo could understand that, I'm pretty sure a teen with a strong Torah based 2 parent home can grasp that concept. We can disapprove of other people's choices, and still love the Jew.

I admit I have a very different point of view from the OP, because I'm not FFB, I'm not in an insular community, and I became observant through kiruv. I've learned how to hold to my standards, while loving other Jews where they're holding. I try to pass those values down to DD, so that she will have Ahavas Isroel, but still be strong inside herself.

It's certainly much harder than keeping her isolated from all negative influences, but in the long run I feel that it's going to pay off, and make her a better, more compassionate person.

Just my two cents.

with a smile :)

Mon, Oct 28 2013, 12:38 am

I don't think there's any reason to stop this friendship, but you do need to clarify things with your child.

You can sit down and say, "I understand from what you told me that this is the situation at X's house (fiance sleeping over/premarital intimate relationship). The first thing is that we need to be dan lekaf zechus and realize that we don't know ever everything that is going on in someone else's home. So sometimes a situation that looks one way, could really be a different way.

"But you do need to know that the Torah only allows people to sleep together and be intimate after marriage (however you want to phrase that according to your child's current level of understanding. And if they don't know anything about this area, looks like it's time for a bigger talk about marriage/intimacy from a Torah perspective). In marriage it is a mitzvah and a beautiful thing, something special between a husband and wife that also brings us closer to Hashem, etc..."

"If this is really what's going on, that they are doing things before marriage that the Torah only allows after marriage, than you need to understand that that is assur, and not something we look up to. Just as if they didn't keep Shabbos or ate food that isn't kosher. But at the same time, you need to treat them respectfully, just as you must treat any person respectfully, regardless of their level of observance (kavod habriyos). And while this is a very difficult time for your friend X, and it's such a big mitzvah that you are there for him while he goes through this, this particular situation is not one that's appropriate for you to be discussing with him. It's not tzanua to speak about what other people do in the bedroom (or out, if intimacy is not contained to the bedroom, and you can explain that discussing other ppl's intimate life is called nivul peh and there is a mitzvah not to do it, etc.)."

Obviously, edit as appropriate. But this is the message your child needs to hear : This is how the Torah holds, this is what is okay and what is not okay. But we judge actions, not people, and we need to be respectful to everyone regardless of what they do.

I don't think there's any reason to cut off the relationship unless there is a real, substantiated threat that this child is going to influence your child to do specific detrimental actions (whatever that is for you and your community). Which you haven't indicated at all. While you would have preferred your child to be shielded from the idea of premarital intimacy, the exposure has already happened, and even if it wouldn't have happened this particular way, if you are raising a teenage anywhere in today's world (really, anywhere!) it would have happened soon enough anyway.