Syrian Edict on Gerim

Bruria

Thu, Apr 24 2014, 11:18 pm

I agree that it is against the Torah to forbid marrying a convert! It's written so many times about how we should love the convert! I understand that maybe they got desperate and just made this edict, but I don't think they have authority to contradict what is in the Torah. One thing is to marry whomever they want, another thing is saying others can't.
Does anyone have any real statistics to share about this?

imaima

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 4:04 am

amother wrote:

OP here. For those who think it is not against the Torah, could you show me a source that supports this?

I don't think it is against the Torah. Syrians are not forced to live in a Syrian community. They can marry a convert and live in a community that does accept converts. Shouldn't be too hard to find such a community in NYC...

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 6:22 am

There are non Syrians, apparently, who have joined this in America. I heard of some Moroccans.

Outside of America, there are Syrians who marry converts. But I do notice that they tend to marry Syrians, or even cousins, only, more than other groups (there are families that way in all edot, but more by them, including among the very very modern which is getting rarer and rarer in other groups - as in: among the other groups,if you're lite MO, pants, public school, uni, you don't engage your 16 year old daughter to her 28 year old first cousin who just finished his degree).

As for how halachic it is... I suppose their rabbanim stand by it, so yeah. Though I have no idea of how such thing could have a source older than their decree.

Raisin

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 7:06 am

imaima wrote:

and not have anything to do with their family again? that's not a choice for many people.

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 9:00 am

Ok I am Syrian and although I don't know all the ins and outs of this edict I can explain a little . The edict was done to protect our community from intermarriage period ! G-d forbid would anyone ever not consider a sincere convert jewish . I'm not sure what the fine print is but I know a few converts that are part of the community . One even dates SY girls for marriage . This community has the extremely low intermarriage rate compared to other jewish community's . Even the most modern families don't think of leaving the religion. And no matter how far off ppl can be there is still a strong sense of community and tradition . Anyone who knows anything about a Syrian community will tell you that there no community like that in the world on such a grand level. The edict has protected us and was not meant to say we don't consider converts Jews . The rabbis of this community understood it's ppl And felt it was nessacry to create such a thing . Today we have tons of teens on college campus ,working at high end jobs in the city, partying with non Jews on weekends , if it happened that one would want to marry they would have to leave all together . And almost nobody is willing to do that and that what makes us . I hope this has helped and sorry for the ppl who are offended I can't say I blame you it took me years to understand this edict and for many years I felt the same as you . But now that I am older I see how the rabbis of the time had great insight I think for THIS community it was needed

lavendar

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 9:12 am

Ruchel wrote:

In America there are other edit that follow this like Egyptian and lebenses we are considered one community and a few morracan a have joined as well ... I believe that the edict is strong in our sister communities ex: panama and Mexico . Yes Syrians marry Syrians but as for the cousins things its really uncommon to do that

Aylat

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 9:29 am

There were time periods when no conversions were accepted because it was assumed they were insincere, eg during the reign of Shlomo Hamelech when the Jews were politically powerful. Fear of insincerity seems to be the motive here.

I have the greatest respect for geirim, those I know personally and you wonderful amothers. Kol hakavod, you are following in prestigious footsteps .

greenfire

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 9:43 am

this is NOT a new phenomenon & not held exclusively by the syrian community but many sfardim, yemenites, etc.

then atop of this all you have other communities who look down on geirim as well ... what chas v'shalom never make a shidduch with that family

you gotta wonder why it says in the torah
דברים
'פרק י
פסוק י"ט
וַאֲהַבְתֶּם אֶת הַגֵּר כִּי גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:24 am

amother wrote:

And almost nobody gets married at 16 anymore either I'm curious to know where you live and why u have this impression

I said engaged Wink

I suppose she didn't get married before 18 or even later?

I did see a good number of more or less distant cousin (first, second or more distant) marriages in the "Syro Lebanese" community, as well as "younger girls" engaged (not married). But really would rather not give details as to where I saw it Wink

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:26 am

I read online (Imamother?) that some Syrians in America don't even marry Ashkenazim unless they are frei.

I live/am familiar with places with many, many different Mizrachi and Sefardic groups, and never saw IRL kehilot not allowing conversions or beshitta not marrying converts in Europe. I'm curious if they exist.

Rubber Ducky

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:29 am

greenfire wrote:

this is NOT a new phenomenon & not held exclusively by the syrian community...you gotta wonder why it says in the torah
דברים
'פרק י
פסוק י"ט
וַאֲהַבְתֶּם אֶת הַגֵּר כִּי גֵרִים הֱיִיתֶם בְּאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

Maybe it's in the Torah because many people find it hard to do.

Raisin

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:38 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Maybe it's in the Torah because many people find it hard to do.

so is shabbos, kosher, kibbud av v'eem.

can you imagine the leader of any orthodox community came out and said we can drive on shabbos since that makes it easier to get to shul?

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:44 am

Ruchel wrote:

I said engaged Wink

I understand but it's really not the norm . Even amongst the "new comers" is not really common . I had a girl in my class marry in11th grade ... But again it's not the norm

morah

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 10:46 am

My husband is not Syrian (his family is from a different Middle Eastern country), but I do know a little about the Syrian edict. Seems to me that at the time it was a horaat sha'a thus allowed even though it is otherwise against the Torah. But it has outlived its usefulness and should have been retracted by now. That's kind of the point of the horaat sha'a- it's l'sha'a, for now, not l'olam, forever.

Bruria

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 12:37 pm

Raisin wrote:

so is shabbos, kosher, kibbud av v'eem.

can you imagine the leader of any orthodox community came out and said we can drive on shabbos since that makes it easier to get to shul?

Excellent point! If a rabbi came and said that people would say he is crazy, why is this any different?
However , even here there are places (syrian) that don't go by the edict.