Syrian Edict on Gerim

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 3:12 pm

morah wrote:

My husband is not Syrian (his family is from a different Middle Eastern country), but I do know a little about the Syrian edict. Seems to me that at the time it was a horaat sha'a thus allowed even though it is otherwise against the Torah. But it has outlived its usefulness and should have been retracted by now. That's kind of the point of the horaat sha'a- it's l'sha'a, for now, not l'olam, forever.

The edict was renewed in 2006. How is it still horaat sha'a? I think they are just going to keep renewing it, even though from what I know the assimilation rates from the Syrians are no different than those from Ashkenaz communities.

Mommy3.5

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 4:18 pm

Do any of you know how great the intermarriage rate was before? It was high. Many SY men were working overseas and converting girls and marrying them at the time. They were in danger of being a dying community. Most of these convert brides wer not sincere. Gerus does not count when it isnt sincere. That is basic.

There ARE geirim in our community. They choose to be there for whatever reason, they are treated with respect. Some shuls do post signs that are not so nice. not all.

Many SYs live and work overseas today, There are huge amounts of them in China, whitch is why the edict was reenacted.

The article is a horror, completely inaccurate.

There have been tmes before when geirim were noy accepted. Not only that but converting in order to marry is 100% always not allowed. there are very strict rules for geirus under those circumstances . These were the conversions they were avoiding by banning marriage to geirim. The fact is that when the issue comes up there is intense checking, and if it checks out marriage is allowed.

No it is not the best way. Yes it has major issues. But, it is the reason that the intermarriage rate is close to zero. Its also the reason that on any given night you see women in pants at the sefardic mikvaaot. Its the reason you see a man in jeans and a baseball cap in shul every shabbat, even if he goes home and watches a yankee game. Its the reason why the community is so close, even though religious observance has a wide curve . It is part of what makes the community what it is. A communtyrich in culture, tradition, chesed and prosperity. And even if they will not marry a convert , they will respect them. And some will marry them.

Oh, and what Ruchel said about SYs in the US not marrying ashkenazim.....Not true. But let me tell you, many ashkenazim wont Marry syrians. I know this from personal family experience. Where members of my family who were Prime catches, andeven went to ashkenazi schools, were told that being sefardi was a deal breaker, and not once. tens of times....

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 4:35 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

OP here. Tell me, are there enough Sys in China to renew this? And if they accept converts in some cases, then what is even the purpose of the edict?Is it renewed just to scare people out? Because since they do accept some gerim, then the edict is not very real.

The article is not exaggerating, the text of the edict is very clear.

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:21 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

most of the major businesses in the communities have china based factories. many community members are ther, in the 10,000 or more. A lot of these business hire community members for various reasons. the article is very slanted and, its not enforced aswritten, plus you are talking about wording that is quite old.

The fundamental hole in all this to me is that even without an edict, no community converts for marriage. Yet, these communities have strict standards for these conversions, and as far as I know the intermarriage rate in any dati community is quite low. There really isn't any reason to go on with the edict, and communities outside here and Mexico/Panama do not go by it. Or are they assuming that all SYs have more problems controlling themselves than others?I don't think so.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:34 pm

amother wrote:

A. We're talking about traditional Jews, not serious frum Jews.

B. The Syrian community is unique in the sense that members feel a very strong connection to their community and will go along with things like this edict in order to maintain their position in the community. That's why it works for them.

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:50 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I get it , it is my community too. Yet, I see no sense for it, because everyone is already very traditional, I don't think the intermarriage rates would change inside the community. I just see this as something that is not according to halacha and that hurts people and the image of SYs in general.

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:50 pm

I'm the immother who who posted before saying I was Syrian .... I don't think I was clear but I mentioned that its not a black and white and that there are situations where converts ARE allowed its just very strict to protect the community and it did its job very well .... There are plenty of ppl that are not religious at all yet somehow the intermarriage rate is close to zero. The edict is in every shul that holds by it and its framed its something we are proud of bec it keeps us together . For those who don't know the dynamics of our community I could see why u feel the way you do but once you know what our community is like u will be amazed because there is really nothing like it in the world ! I dont think anyone on this site has the right to argue halacha with the rabbis who started this . they were not just regular rabbis they were extremely knowledgeable in Halacha . Sephardic tradition puts alot of emphasis on learning Halacha and your talking about cheif rabbis here .I'm sure they knew what they were doing . On a different note we do marry ashkenaz I have a few relatives that did . but ppl like staying within the community bec we are proud of it And everyone likes to marry there own kind . And don't make it like ashkenaz are banging on our doors and we are saying no . It's also more common for ashkenaz to marry ashkenaz .

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:52 pm

amother wrote:

Like Raisin said, if a rabbi told you to violate Shabbat would you?Love the convert is deoraita.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 5:54 pm

amother wrote:

Are you seriously part of the NY/NJ Syrian community? Your questions sound like they're coming from someone who has no idea what the community is all about.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 6:17 pm

amother wrote:

Being part of a community does not mean agreeing to everything they do.There are many , just like me, that find this an embarrassment. Reason why I am anon.

I don't think you have to agree. I was just surprised that your questions were coming from someone with so much intimate knowledge of the community workings.

Why did you start this thread with outsiders instead of taking it up with other members of your community?

amother

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 6:29 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I don't know! I guess I was curious about the general opinion of how others view the edict and how inside people view it . So I think I was trying to compare people's views, and to see how each person justified their own view, because I can't honestly think of a source that would still support this edict. I think from the beginning there could have been a better solution to respond to the intermarriage issue without taking up on something like this. I would still like to see any concrete evidence that the edict did anything.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Apr 25 2014, 6:36 pm

amother wrote:

OK, you just opened yourselves up to more embarrassment Wink

I think the intermarriage rate is concrete evidence. You say it would have been as low as it is even without the edict? I guess that's your opinion, but I'm assuming the rabbis of the community feel it was in fact instrumental.

Ruchel

Sat, Apr 26 2014, 5:41 pm

Definitely not all Ashkenazim will marry others.
But I definitely heard some Syrian kehilot don't marry Ashkenazim.
I don't really mind, it's their choice. Not marrying converts is another thing, a possible halachic problem to decide this for a whole kehila, beshitta.

Quote:

Its also the reason that on any given night you see women in pants at the sefardic mikvaaot. Its the reason you see a man in jeans and a baseball cap in shul every shabbat, even if he goes home and watches a yankee game.

There are soooo many like this among traditional non Syrians (and MO, for the pants). Ashkenazim, Moroccans, Tunisians... you don't need no-convert edict, though I do understand it.

Raisin

Sat, Apr 26 2014, 6:24 pm

mikva usage is really common among other traditional sefardi Jews, such as Persians. I think that is due to other factors other then the edict.

Why not just have really strict conversion guidelines? the syrians could easily set up their own beis din with very very strict guidelines, and only converts from this beis din (or other batei din with similar standards) will be accepted.

I know many converts who have gone through conversion with strict batei din, even for marriage and are wonderful frum people. (both the convert and their spouse)

amother

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 1:32 pm

Dh and I are both gerim, so I guess this edict wouldn't apply to us anyway, even if we lived in a Syrian community.
In response to those posters who said that they felt ostracized in general by the Syrian community, I must say I feel awful you had to go through that. It's just wrong.
We lived in a mixed Sephardic community that included many Syrians. The rabbi was Syrian, although the congregation was a combo of Syrian, Iraqi, Moroccan, and others. Never did we feel left out or discriminated against in any way. The Syrian rabbi performed our wedding, and, to my eyes, nobody had a problem with us as gerim at all, although many people knew what our background is. In fact, there were several converts in our synagogue, and I have never witnessed anything negative said or done against them (regarding their status).
After reading the posts on this topic, it pained me to read that not everyone is so nice. I won't express my opinion on the edict, because it really makes no difference what I think anyway. But I must respond to say that just as nobody should paint all geirim as insincere, nobody should paint all Syrians (or any group) as being bigoted.

amother

Sun, Apr 27 2014, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

Dh and I are both gerim, so I guess this edict wouldn't apply to us anyway, even if we lived in a Syrian community.
In response to those posters who said that they felt ostracized in general by the Syrian community, I must say I feel awful you had to go through that. It's just wrong.
We lived in a mixed Sephardic community that included many Syrians. The rabbi was Syrian, although the congregation was a combo of Syrian, Iraqi, Moroccan, and others. Never did we feel left out or discriminated against in any way. The Syrian rabbi performed our wedding, and, to my eyes, nobody had a problem with us as gerim at all, although many people knew what our background is. In fact, there were several converts in our synagogue, and I have never witnessed anything negative said or done against them (regarding their status).
After reading the posts on this topic, it pained me to read that not everyone is so nice. I won't express my opinion on the edict, because it really makes no difference what I think anyway. But I must respond to say that just as nobody should paint all gerim as insincere, nobody should paint all Syrians (or any group) as being bigoted.

That is great! :)The edict applies mostly to Syrian communities in certain places and the other Sephardi groups did not accept this edict, and Rav Ovadia Yossef also did not agree with this at all, in fact he was very against the edict and very against causing pain to gerim. I think it is great that there are some places that do not go by this edict, of course not alll Syrians are like this, but it will depend on the community and the geographic location.
Good news!