Syrian Edict on Gerim

amother

Mon, Apr 28 2014, 3:34 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Do any of you know how great the intermarriage rate was before? It was high. Many SY men were working overseas and converting girls and marrying them at the time. They were in danger of being a dying community. Most of these convert brides wer not sincere. Gerus does not count when it isnt sincere. That is basic.

Marrying a convert does not equal intermarriage. That is basic.

These quick conversions undertaken by these girls who were insincere and were converting only for marriage aren't real conversions. The girls aren't really Jews, thus, marriage to them would be intermarriage. Marriage to girls who have undergone such a conversion is forbidden in ALL orthodox communities but most aren't implementing a ban on marriage to gerim, they're simply ensuring that any convert who wishes to marry a member of their community has undergone a halachically acceptable conversion under a stringent and respected beth din.

There ARE geirim in our community. They choose to be there for whatever reason, they are treated with respect. Some shuls do post signs that are not so nice. not all.

Many SYs live and work overseas today, There are huge amounts of them in China, whitch is why the edict was reenacted.

The article is a horror, completely inaccurate.

Mommy3.5 wrote:

The fact is that when the issue comes up there is intense checking, and if it checks out marriage is allowed.

As far as I am aware, marriage is only allowed if the person had a valid conversion before the age of three.

I personally know of a case where marriage was denied between a religious young Syrian man and a girl who had converted under a respected beth din in Israel several years before meeting him. Rabonim from the girl's community who had known her before, during and after her conversion were able to testify as to her sincerity and commitment to Judaism but the Syrian rav would not let his congregant marry her.

Mommy3.5 wrote:

it is the reason that the intermarriage rate is close to zero.

I disagree. As I wrote before, marriage to a convert is not intermarriage. Allowing marriage to sincere converts who have been though an often lengthy conversion process with a well respected beth din will not (in my opinion) open the floodgates to intermarriage.

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Its also the reason that on any given night you see women in pants at the sefardic mikvaaot.

There are women in pants at the mikvah because people from that community are not allowed to marry converts? I don't see the connection.

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Its the reason you see a man in jeans and a baseball cap in shul every shabbat, even if he goes home and watches a yankee game. Its the reason why the community is so close, even though religious observance has a wide curve . It is part of what makes the community what it is. A communtyrich in culture, tradition, chesed and prosperity.

Forbidding marriage to gerim is not the reason for any of these things but you do raise an interesting point about the huge range in observance. I think that more of the younger generation are moving towards greater observance but there are still many who drive to shul on Shabbat etc and in our shul, many who go to shul to socialise rather than pray, not even picking up a siddur. If a convert was truly sincere, they would not with to marry someone with this kind of observance.

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Oh, and what Ruchel said about SYs in the US not marrying ashkenazim.....Not true. But let me tell you, many ashkenazim wont Marry syrians. I know this from personal family experience. Where members of my family who were Prime catches, andeven went to ashkenazi schools, were told that being sefardi was a deal breaker, and not once. tens of times....

Yes indeed, there is no prohibition to marrying Ashkenazim but very many Ashkenazim will not marry Syrians or any other Sefardim and not just in the United States. There are many very frum Sefardim but many Ashkenazim believe that simply being Sefardi makes you less frum and then there is the misconception that Sefardi men are violent of course.

In truth, I think that the culture in Syrian, Persian, Lebanese and other similar communities is very difficult to adapt to for someone who is not from that background.

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 28 2014, 4:49 pm

Interestingly in some circles, Ashkies are assumed to be lax, and assume so themselves. Lol

invisiblecircus

Mon, Apr 28 2014, 4:54 pm

Which circles? Some Sephardi circles?

Ruchel

Mon, Apr 28 2014, 5:01 pm

Some north africans

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:01 am

How is the climate in the community now? Can we revive for discussion? Have there been any changes?

amother

Lime

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:17 am

amother wrote:

Ok I am Syrian and although I don't know all the ins and outs of this edict I can explain a little . The edict was done to protect our community from intermarriage period ! G-d forbid would anyone ever not consider a sincere convert jewish . I'm not sure what the fine print is but I know a few converts that are part of the community . One even dates SY girls for marriage . This community has the extremely low intermarriage rate compared to other jewish community's . Even the most modern families don't think of leaving the religion. And no matter how far off ppl can be there is still a strong sense of community and tradition . Anyone who knows anything about a Syrian community will tell you that there no community like that in the world on such a grand level. The edict has protected us and was not meant to say we don't consider converts Jews . The rabbis of this community understood it's ppl And felt it was nessacry to create such a thing . Today we have tons of teens on college campus ,working at high end jobs in the city, partying with non Jews on weekends , if it happened that one would want to marry they would have to leave all together . And almost nobody is willing to do that and that what makes us . I hope this has helped and sorry for the ppl who are offended I can't say I blame you it took me years to understand this edict and for many years I felt the same as you . But now that I am older I see how the rabbis of the time had great insight I think for THIS community it was needed

Thank you fellow Syrian here!! Our community NEEDED it . There was so much intermarriage that our community would’ve gotten completely lost and off the derech. It might sound strange to you but don’t judge from the outside.

amother

Plum

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:33 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Except that this is a violation of a mitzvah d' oraita...
I hope they can do teshuvah.

amother

Lime

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:35 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Except that this is a violation of a mitzvah d' oraita...
I hope they can do teshuvah.

Wow didn’t realize this thread was from years ago. That was years ago that they were intermarrying so I don’t know where they are now. That’s why Hacham yaakob made the edict

amother

Puce

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:40 am

Wow, this is an old thread, as an a syrian, I find it very offensive, that some people condsider this a violation of amitzvah d'orata.
The edict was written in accordance to Oseh Siyug LaTorah. Make a fence for protection.
To those not familar with the edict, it was written many years ago, when there were many problems of "sham" converts, who were just converting to marry Jewish people. Particularly in the 1920s , and being a very small community, at the time. The Rabbis decided to declare the edict.
The rabbis at the time decided to place a fence to protect the commuinity, from insincere conversions. and B'H it was renewed and the SY community is known to have very low intermarriage rates because of it.
We have no problems accepting children who are adopted and then decide to convert. There are quite a few of these children who were adopted and converted and has adapted the Syrian Minhigam.
And if there is a really sincere convert, they can always go to an Israel Beth Din.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 6:11 am

My sister who was seriously dating her Syrian boyfriend (who was not very religious) and was told by his parents they cannot marry because my father is a convert. They told her that Syrians can’t marry gerim and that it goes to the next generations as well. They only found out about my father’s conversion after they were friends for a while. So in this case, I don’t see how this prevents intermarriage. She was born Jewish and frum. It was the first time we learned about this edict. My sister always had a love for the Syrian community and felt very close to them and hung out there a lot. But after this happened it shattered her.

grace413

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 7:41 am

thunderstorm wrote:

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 7:42 am

thunderstorm wrote:

I wonder what would have happened if they had gone to a Syrian Rabbi to speak to the parents. It could have been that this was being used as a ruse to break them up because they wanted him to marry someone from their community or disapproved of the match for another reason.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:02 am

This is very shocking. I read thru part of the thread and I’m surprised and sad. I know syryians and I’ve always respected them. After reading this I changed my mind. How can I have respect for a group of people who are not following the Torah? Very shameful and disappointing...

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:14 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Can someone please explain to me (I am asking 100% sincerely and dont want to offend, I want to learn). What does this edict do to prevent intermarriage? It seems to me that the people who want to marry a non Jew will do so no matter what. All this will do is prevent them from marrying people who are converting just for marriage. How is this keeping people on the derech? And how is this preventing intermarriage? I truly dont see the connection.

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:19 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

WADR, SO MANY different groups make gezerim, add chumrahs, etc. Some literally add mitzvos to the torah and add halachos and look down on those who dont do what they decided to add. Other groups take away. They remove halachos, call halachos "chumrahs", and take away from the Torah. We ALL have our things. Each group. All Jews. There is a reason Moshiach is not here yet. We are not ready.

Its not for me or you to have respect for a group. Its for me and you to love all Jews because thats the mitzvah. Lets not use this edict as a reason to cause sinas chinam, klal yisrael cant afford it.

amother

Magenta

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:24 am

watergirl wrote:

Not a Syrian here, but it's quite simple to see what was going on. It was becoming quite common and accepted for the guys to date not Jewish girls and then do a sham conversion to may them. Many were probably dating non Jewish girls as an ideal too. (Syrian girls were likely suffering too with shidduchim because of this) Like it was a status to land some blue eyed blonde hair gentile woman. The Syrians a are a very close knit community and it would be devastating not to be accepted by the community. Is ashkenazim might not understand it, but these guys were not looking to leave the community at all. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. This edict really accomplished a lot.

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:26 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

Their community was being threatened because the boys sometimes came to America and worked to bring the parents to America but by the time that the parents came, the sons had chosen non-Jewish wives who had undergone quasi conversions but who had no intention of keeping community religious and cultural norms. Naturally this was not going to foster continuation of the culture.
As we see in the rest of American Jewish society, this happened all over, not just to Syrians and much of the non frum community is massively intermarried and barely affiliated with Judaism at all.
I don't think that they would view those people who converted through a valid Beis Din as non Jewish but they want to preserve their culture which basically means encouraging marriages within their community.

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:27 am

watergirl wrote:

And I'll add to this, now that I am thinking of it - is there truly any difference between the Syrians, who have this official edict, then say, other people who insist that their children marry only people with "yichus"? People literally wont allow their children to marry a BT or a ger all in the name of yichus. People stick to their own chassidus or other background. Not saying its ok. Just saying, the Syrians are by FAR not the only ones to do this. They just put it down on paper and OWN it. They admit it and dont shy away form what it really is.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:28 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

Syrian here. So I guess we'll just be added to the list of hated groups on imamother.

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:30 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

OK, I hear that. Thanks. I wonder how many people still marry out and just walk away? I say this as someone who has half of a family who is not Jewish because a few of my uncles and great uncles and cousins married non Jewish women and left completely. They just had no interest in staying.