Syrian Edict on Gerim

Raisin

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:30 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Not a Syrian here, but it's quite simple to see what was going on. It was becoming quite common and accepted for the guys to date not Jewish girls and then do a sham conversion to may them. Many were probably dating non Jewish girls as an ideal too. (Syrian girls were likely suffering too with shidduchim because of this) Like it was a status to land some blue eyed blonde hair gentile woman. The Syrians a are a very close knit community and it would be devastating not to be accepted by the community. Is ashkenazim might not understand it, but these guys were not looking to leave the community at all. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. This edict really accomplished a lot.

That all makes sense, but not allowing syrians to marry children or grandchildren of gerim, or someone who converted sincerely long before they met, does nothing to prevent intermarriage.

Simple1

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:36 am

watergirl wrote:

And I'll add to this, now that I am thinking of it - is there truly any difference between the Syrians, who have this official edict, then say, other people who insist that their children marry only people with "yichus"? People literally wont allow their children to marry a BT or a ger all in the name of yichus. People stick to their own chassidus or other background. Not saying its ok. Just saying, the Syrians are by FAR not the only ones to do this. They just put it down on paper and OWN it. They admit it and dont shy away form what it really is.

Ironically, it's not so uncommon for two Syrians of mixed background and families of different frumkeit levels to marry.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:40 am

watergirl wrote:

What are you talking about? My mother is a gioress and my siblings and neices and nephews have married into all sorts of families. Sefardi, (everything except syrian ) ffb families with yichus, people of colour, Bts. Sure, there are ffbs who don't want to marry children of a convert. But not the ones who married into my family. And there are plenty of people who don't care about stuff like that. (Its like saying some people are racist so lets ban all blacks from certain restaurants and parks.)

But you could have the nicest, most non judgemental Syrian family who want to remain connected to their community and their son comes home with a lovely frum girl. Turns out lovely frum girls grandmother converted. Lovely Syrian family and son are devastated but don't want to be ostracised. Sure, son can find a rabbi who will marry him but he loves his family and doesn't want to cause them anguish. And there are lots of lovely frum girls....

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:41 am

Simple1 wrote:

Ironically, it's not so uncommon for two Syrians of mixed background and families of different frumkeit levels to marry.

Thats so great and I dont see it as irony. I see it as a community who truly holds their values dear. Even if I dont understand it, its nice to see how a community is tight knit in this way and still seems to be so inclusive. Ashkenazim can learn a lot from this.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:44 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Syrian here. So I guess we'll just be added to the list of hated groups on imamother.

I'm sure you are a nice person. But when I read about this edict and realised that there is an entire group of people who don't consider me Jewish enough, it is really painful.

And I have to tell my kids to stay away from Syrians so they don't end up being hurt like Thunderstorm's sister.

How many generations does this last? Is anyone descended from David Hamelech suspect?

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:46 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

What am I talking about? I am intentionally being vague because I dont need to turn this into an even more offensive thread. Yes, of COURSE most people would welcome BTs and geirim. But to be blind to the communities who will not is daft. There are plenty. SO my post was in response to amother Dogerblue who threw mud at the Syrian community without realizing that there are others who will also not allow their children to marry converts. Feel free to pm me if you would like to continue this discussion in a more specific way.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:47 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Syrian here. So I guess we'll just be added to the list of hated groups on imamother.

Hate? I never said anything about hatred! I’m just very disappointed.
I’m disappointed that there are a group of Jewish people who are not following the Torah.

The Torah gives us rules for everything.
Ex. What to do if a person finds chometz on pesach
What to do if a marriage doesn’t work out
And what to do if a non Jew wants to join the Jewish nation

How can people say “well, we’re not following that part of the Torah...”?

Honestly, I’m not sure how I would feel if my child marries a convert. But it wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I didn’t think they are really not Jewish. I would think it’s obvious that if someone becomes a ger according to Halacha then it’s perfectly acceptable.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:50 am

watergirl wrote:

I'm more then happy to bash any community who has a similar edict. Or any community who has rules which go against the torah.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:53 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

This is exactly what happened to us. The guys family really loved my sister and my mother loved their son. But there was a very strong bond and love in the family (which was actually very attractive to my sister) and he was no way going to cause his parents pain. They were not religious . But that’s what I find so admirable . Even if they are not religious they remain strong and true to their minhagim and traditions. I still think Syrians are wonderful people and so does my sister. We just know that we can only be friends and not marry into their families.
My in-laws and my own family experience pain quite often in regard to the way we are sometimes treated for being converts and descendants of converts. It’s something we are used to unfortunately. Yes, the pain renews each time, with each incident. But just like us yidden accept that there is anti Semitism in the world , we as geirim also accept that geirim and their descendants will never be treated as equals amongst our own. It’s our own personal nisayon to overcome and we embrace it, as hard as it is.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:58 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

You are considered Jewish. It's mostly about shidduchim. And trust me I have enough of my own pain trying to marry off my kids.

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:00 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

They are not going against the Torah any more than anyone else who only marry those people who have their yichus. The Torah forbids cheating gerim and reminding them that they descended from idolaters. The Torah doesn't require us to assist them in converting or marrying them once they do.

I am a BT and Chabad brought in many BTs but only a small percentage at first allowed their children to marry them and there are still many FFB families who want their own yichus for their kids.

watergirl

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:05 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

They DO believe conversions are valid. They just wont allow marriage of a convert because of fear of an invalid conversion, which we all know are not kosher. Its been explained to me upthread. A conversion which is done strictly for marriage purposes is not kosher, which for their community, was a real issue. Thats known. There has to be a real reason the person wants to convert. There is no chidish there.

You just said yourself that you dont know how you would feel if your child married a convert. Why? The Torah says to welcome converts, does it not? Be honest with yourself. Why would you not follow this mitzvah d'oraisa and be welcoming and feel just fine with it?

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:14 am

watergirl wrote:

Where does the Torah say to welcome converts? I do see where it says not to cheat them or remind them of where they came from.

amother

Maroon

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 10:44 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

That's the thing--people didn't decided to just discriminate based on hatred and prejudice. They are following a psak made for their communtiy.

Their gedolim have/had the authority to make this psak. There is much precedent for gedolim changing halacha, or forbidding what is permitted when there are dire circumstances. The edict was one such case of "es la'asos la'Shem haphairu torasecha". (Just my understanding, I'm sephardic but not Syrian)

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:27 am

SixOfWands wrote:

How is it not reminding a convert where she came from to decree that we (as a group) won't marry you because you're a convert, or because your mother is.

I think that the halacha probably means not saying to a ger that we consider him to be second class because of his background. This may be different than rejecting gerim as a group for the purpose of marriage. Do the Syrians object to doing business with gerim, counting them in a minyon, circumcising their children, going to school with their children, etc? Many groups steer clear of marrying "out" (of the group).

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:07 pm

It's not just about marriage......speaking from personal experience here. They will not accept a ger or child of a ger into their schools, this happens in Bklyn and Deal, south NJ, etc.... and they will not accept them in their shuls. So no a man or boy who is a ger or decedent of a ger would not be counted in a minyan. Another friend of mine, could not hold her son's bar mitzva in a shul they desired bc the mother is a giyores.

Now you want to tell me this is the Torah way???????

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:17 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Probably not kosher but then I am far from being any kind of halachic authority. Kohanim are prohibited from marrying female converts so there is a source in the Torah for prohibiting certain marriages.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:21 pm

I think a bigger question is why is this community so assimilated that they were dealing with a lot of intermarriage? I understand trying to combat people converting just for marriage which is definitely not considered a valid conversion. I don’t understand shunning a ger tzedek. How would this help the assimilated Syrians? I would think they should work on making the religious Syrian community stronger.