Furious at my inlaws

Barbara

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:23 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

This is such weird behavior that either they don't like their son one bit, don't like his wife one bit, or.....

and I hesitate to accuse, but this occurs to me:

..... they are flat out, in debt, broke, and what you see is with borrowed money, to protect them from the agony of public embarrassment, and they don't have five cents to give you.

OP. Let it alone.

It's not there.

Sorry.

You can't get blood from a stone.

Stop embarrassing these people.

Or maybe, just maybe, the in-laws love their son so much that they want to be sure that he understands the value of hard work. That he understands how difficult it is to earn your own way, but how good that really feels.

Had the OP said that because of illness or unemployment, they were unable to pay the rent or utilities, or for a needed medical procedure, I would be right there with her.

But a down payment for a house? Its not a necessity.

freidasima

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:33 pm

How strange. It would never occur to me to give money to build a yeshiva building before my children owned their own homes. Maybe to give a few hundred shekel, but THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS??? Of course it is tax deductable and maybe they needed the tax break...that could be...but otherwise?

We all want our kids to be self sufficient but in today's world that's really hard. The idea is that you help your kids so that they can start already saving money to help THEIR kids when the time comes. That is what I tell my children. Save save save and let us buy you things so that when the time comes you will be able to be as generous to your children. I know that my children work hard, all of them, including the student, and if I can make their lives easier why not? That in the long run is one of the things a parent can do for their child, to make their life easier. I have a limited amount of energy I can give them because of my job and my health so as long as I can afford to help them financially? Just have to make sure I don't dip into what we will need for our old age because what good would that be if they have to support us then??

In short, IF the OP and her husband are working hard and doing their utmost, why in the world aren't the parents - if they can afford it - offering to help, long before children have to ask? There are lots of ways to do it if the parents don't want to hand over the cash right off. They can just pay some of the bills, or they can take on themselves to always bring over disposable diapers (here they are expensive) or to pay the grandchildren's school expenses which for the younger set even here in EY can be a pretty penny. They can take their children out for clothes shopping before yuntif and outfit everyone. They have lots of things to do and it doesn't have to be to fork over a fortune for a downpayment if they can't afford it.

Why in the world would any parent who had to break his or her back to make a living want their children to work that hard? My husband and I broke our backs and we really don't want our kids to ever have to work that hard...it teaches you nothing except how to become totally exhausted at a young age. It's enough to work normally, not to have to take on three moonlighting jobs. Halevai !! That my children will never need to work like that. They know the stories of how we worked, and everyone of them has proven that they can work hard and hustle...but why should they have to break their backs? That's like saying I lived without running water at home, so my children should learn to cope without running water as well.

Why? Ridiculous. As long as you know they aren't lazy and their midos are good? Make life easier for them. Hopefully it will be worthwhile in the long run.

Happy18

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:36 pm

freidasima wrote:

As a parent it is your choice to give money to your children. To have them resent you for not giving them a down payment? I doubt you would be ok with that.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:39 pm

debsey wrote:

A family loan for a down-payment is SO normal, though, right? It's done all over. A lot of people need help just getting started.
debs

I can see the value of teaching self-sufficiency. Yes.

Perhaps it is in each situation's dynamic - you have to be sensitive to who has tons of money and who is suffering. If there isn't any real suffering going on, it might be different.

I was reacting to what I thought I heard about a large imbalance.

It is indeed a fine thing if the kids don't bug the parents because of their own pride. I could say that kind of pride is good.

So, only OP knows if it's need or want. I thought I heard need. Maybe not. Only OP knows.

It sounded a little odd about that medical insurance stuff.

Maybe you don't have a huge case, OP.

freidasima

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:42 pm

I can fully understand how children who feel that they are lacking some of the basic things that people around them have and that are considered normal, would be upset that their parents are willing to give tremendous sums to others - either charity or whatever - but don't even think themselves of giving to their own children first, would be very resentful of such behavior on their parents' behalf. After all, aren't parents supposed to try and make life better for their children??

I can also fully understand how such children would be even more upset if such parents would be asked to help and would give them a hard time without explaining.

This is all based on the premise that these children are trying hard to be self supporting, aren't living a lifestyle that they can't afford on their salaries and are trying to be good and kind children to said parents.

debsey

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:50 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

The thing is, it's irrelevant to pontificate on whether or not the in laws are doing the right thing. We know nothing about their perspective, and they're not the ones asking for our opinions.

The one asking for our opinions is OP. She is the only we can influence in this thread. So should we be dissing her in laws? Or should we be focusing on HER perspective, and what SHE can do?

Good point MaBelleVie. The only thing that wasn't fully floated was the idea of a long term LOAN as opposed to a large chunk of cash. Make it a loan and make really easy repayment terms. That both teaches self-sufficiency and gives the couple a leg up.
Did OP try this? Asking for a loan as opposed to a gift?
That would be my suggestion.
debsey

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:52 pm

op here, I just want to clarify- My husband did not ask his father for a down payment. He asked him if he would help towards a down payment ( without asking for a specific amount) and he flatly said no. He made it clear that he expects married couples to be self sufficient and not to ask him to get involved financially. Again, I that is his right. However, I feel he is not acting like a father. Should my husband visit his rav and inquire about what is the lowest possible standard of kibud av vaem, that he is obligated to do so that he still fulfills the mitzvah? Would that be mentchlach? It certainly my husbands right...but the point is that its not how a son should treat his father! A son should WANT to help and be there for his parents and parents should want to be there for their children BEYOND WHAT THEY ARE HALACHACHLY OBLIGATED FOR.

Bruria

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:55 pm

Honestly, in some circles at least, if a parent has money they do help their kids buy a house, they do just that. And I'm not even talking about a down payment, I'm talking about parents actually buying a house for the newlyweds. Not saying that this is the norm or that they are entitled to it, it's just what some parents like to do for their kids.
I think her in laws should at least offer to give them an interest free loan, that way they are not giving money and the OP and her husband don't have to pay large amounts of interest like if they borrowed from a bank for example,

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:05 pm

I wonder does helping child pay for down payment of house equal giving Tzedoko?
Feeling resentful that parents who could afford to wont help is kinda understanding. What I don't get is the feeling of entitlement. Is it possible your attitude is helping their feeling of not wanting to help? As a parent of married I wish I could afford to help my children to buy a house, but to expect it!!! Kibud ov is hallacha. Teaching your children skills to manage on their own yes. You need to face the real world with respect. I hope you manage on your own and do well. May you be blessed to be able to help your children when they are adults to settle down and may they not expect it.

Chayalle

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:19 pm

amother wrote:

There is no halacha that obligates a father to support his married son. None at all.

As a parent, if I were able I'd go to the ends of the earth for my kids. But I would not be Halachically obligated to do so. It's my choice entirely.

Now in terms of your husband's obligation to his parents, there is a Halacha, and not just that: There is also a reward that is specified in the Torah - Lma'an Yarichun Yamecha - long life in the world to come. That kind of promise is rare, so if your DH is honoring his father with the intent of what goes around comes around (I honor you if you take care of me) and not with the intent of fulfilling his mitzva of Kibud Av, then the one who is losing out the most is your DH. He is not getting the support he is looking for from his parents ($$$ toward a downpayment) and he is also not getting the reward in Olam Haba, if he is not intending to fulfill the mitzvah. What a shame!

OP, I feel for you - I really do - that you have inlaws that would seem to have the means to help you and have chosen not to do so. I can understand some feelings of resentment on your part.

However, it would be a shame for your DH to lose out on his eternal reward, so it seems you should try to change your outlook a bit, in your own self-interest at least. Your DH should act as a son should toward his father without hoping for monetary reciprocation and rest assured - Ein Hashem M'kapeach S'char Kol Beryah - Hashem does not withhold even the smallest reward from anyone.

You will not get one penny less of whatever $$ Hashem has in store from you, whether your FIL chooses to give to you or not. Hashem is the true source of all sustenance and rewards all those who truly believe in him.

And by honoring your FIL with the intent of fulfilling his obligation of Kibbud Av and for no other reason, your DH will build his share in the world to come...and you will build yours by being supportive of him.

A win-win situation.

imasinger

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

Not only is it his right; he may feel that it is the best thing he could do. Some people think that self sufficiency is in the end worth more than any amount they could give. It depends on the bigger picture.

Do you know the family history? What support was available to your FIL as a newlywed? To his parents? Did his parents, relatives, or friends suffer in supporting a deadbeat siblng?

Did your FIL agree with your DH's choice about working (or not)?

All of these questions will inform the actions of parents when it comes to what they will or will not do for their children.

Do your IL's express affection for you in other ways?

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:45 pm

chana_f wrote:

For heaven's sake. Why do you see yourself as a tzedakah case. My parents donate plenty to organizations and tzedakah and I would never dream of expecting them to finance my life. Seriously? You and your dh both have jobs, so do what every other young couple does and save up until you can make a down payment. It's not rocket science. Why do you need daddy giving you a handout? My parents have offered us help paying for special tutoring for one of our kids...we turned them down and took out a gemach loan instead. We would not feel comfortable running to daddy for something we can take care of on our own. We're grownups and we're independent, and we like it that way!

Not to criticize your actions, but having to get a loan to cover tutoring doesn't sound to me like you can really "take care" of it on your own. But of course, you're entitled to take a loan instead of a gift if that's what you want.

Imogen

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:52 pm

As a mother/mil I do feel I must do all I can to help my kids, from helping out with the cost of gaining degrees/prof qualifications, as well as urgent necessities. Helping kids is part of being a parent, help means being there for your family, it can be financial but most of all it should mean with emotional loving support and love, with an eyin tov.

But, I would not feel comfortable with dils or sils closely looking over our shoulders to see what we spend or choose to give away, I do not like being assessed for what I may or may not have financially, that is why when it comes to shidduchim I have always told my kids marry someone who wants you, you as a person, not what maybe in your family bank account or yichus folder. I think it wrong when parents do give money away and are feted in the community as big donors when their offspring may be in need of urgent medical treatment or food, that would be just ghastly. However things need to be approached with a good heart, entitlement and resentment are really unattractive qualities to have in a child or their spouse. I love my dils and make sure my dss realise being married involves looking after your wife properly, as both a partner and soulmate, that means treats, breaks, helping around the house and if needed able parents in law stepping in to help may bills. We are comfortable but not rich, I don't want to die a rich old lady, but a happy content safta who could see her offspring enjoying a good life. A good life to me does not mean one of luxury or dependency it means one of love, Torah values and mutual respect. When you know your children love and respect you then you try to do all you can for them.

SRS

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 4:54 pm

amother wrote:

He made it clear that he expects married couples to be self sufficient and not to ask him to get involved financially. Again, I that is his right. However, I feel he is not acting like a father.

OP, time to accept his theory for what it is. Also consider that your FIL knows himself well and understands his own relationship to money and doesn't want to end up creating trouble via a co-dependent relationship like so many other people have with their parents.

So honor him appropriately, draw lines where you need to, and be grateful that you can live a dignified life with a decent relationship to your in-laws that is not colored by their money and how they expect you to spend it.

And with regards to giving money to "strangers", just like I said in another thread to keep in mind that what is theirs is theirs, also remember that you are not a tzedakah case and what is theirs (those worthy of tzedakah funds) is theirs.