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-> Interesting Discussions
flowerpower
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 Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:57 pm
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I know two families that don't believe in vaccinations. They go all natural as they claim. I think they are nuts but they are very brainwashed. Everyone else that I do know, and I know a lot of people do vaccinate. Its like a tiny percentage that don't. I know in my daughter's school they don't allow you to come the first day if your aren't up to date on the shots.
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Raisin
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 4:18 am
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was against ultrasounds for no reason, hence many Lubavitchers will avoid them unless needed.
I know a couple of chabad families who don't vaccinate...I don't know if it is more prevalent.
But since there is a lot of international travel among frum families, measles or mumps in Bnei Brak or London can quickly spread to Lakewood and Crown heights.
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Jewishmom8
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 4:22 am
| imaima wrote: | As far as I understand it, some ultra-orthodox people in Israel don't have anything to do with the state, so they also don't do vaccinations required by the state.
I don't know if there are such people in other countries. |
all my friends and I Vax.
I know that there are some people who see drs privately who don't want to be on kupat cholim they pay privately to vax
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southernbubby
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 7:16 am
| Raisin wrote: | The Lubavitcher Rebbe was against ultrasounds for no reason, hence many Lubavitchers will avoid them unless needed.
I know a couple of chabad families who don't vaccinate...I don't know if it is more prevalent.
But since there is a lot of international travel among frum families, measles or mumps in Bnei Brak or London can quickly spread to Lakewood and Crown heights. |
The Rebbe was against ultrasounds for which there was no medical reason, I think that is what you meant.
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sky
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:04 am
| glutenless wrote: | | As far as I know, that is also a misconception. Everyone I know takes routine ultrasounds. |
Not everyone does. Many Lubavitchers don't. I don't (not lubavitch), my Dr has no issue with it. I have done it if there was suspicion of an issue, unknown due date, etc, but not because it is routine.
I do vax. It is 2 separate issues.
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dancingqueen
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:10 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | The Rebbe was against ultrasounds for which there was no medical reason, I think that is what you meant. |
So why was he against them?
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Notsobusy
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:16 am
| sky wrote: | Not everyone does. Many Lubavitchers don't. I don't (not lubavitch), my Dr has no issue with it. I have done it if there was suspicion of an issue, unknown due date, etc, but not because it is routine.
I do vax. It is 2 separate issues. |
I'm just wondering why you don't take routine ultrasounds, I've never heard of that before. Sometimes an ultrasound could show an issue where there was no suspicion, isn't that the point?
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sky
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:19 am
| dancingqueen wrote: | | So why was he against them? |
I cannot speak for the Lubavitch. But for myself.
There is an idea that a miracle is easier to happen if it is hidden rather then public. So if there is a potential issue that is unknown it is "easier" for Hashem to change it for the good if it is unknown.
I recently heard a story (second hand) about a couple where a heart condition was found that could not be fixed and R' Chaim Kanievsky told them they shouldn't have looked. I know another story were the couple also saw something could not be fixed (soon after losing an older child) and their rav told them to tell no one and keep it a secret now that they knew, b'h their baby was born fine. And I've heard others as well.
[I've asked my own rav and was told not to do it before hearing this stories].
At first I thought I was nuts and it really bothered me that I didn't do it when everyone else did and then read this in the the "Mayo Clinic Guide to a Health Pregnancy." About ultra-sound this is what they write in the "Reason to have it done" section:
| Quote: | "Ultrasound is used so often with pregnancy that you may assume it's a routine part of prenatal care. But researchers have found that for most healthy women with normal pregnancies, a routine ultrasound doesn't seem to make a difference in the outcome of the pregnancy. It may not be cost effective if there aren't any questions of normal fetal development
"If concerns develop, these concerns are best often addressed by an ultrasound. If your not sure when you became pregnant , an ultrasound can help determine the baby's gestational age. If blood tests indicate an abnormality, an ultrasound my identify it. If there is bleeding or a concern about the babies growth rate, an ultrasound is the best initial test. In addition, ultrasound imaging can be used to guide your health care provider while preforming other prenatal tests, such as amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling
"Many women and their partners look forward to an ultrasound because it gives them a first glimpse of their baby. Some parents value an ultrasound for finding out the relations of the baby. Although this is often possible, its not recommended as the sole purpose of an ultrasound. Talk to you health care provider about your need for an ultrasound." |
Last edited by sky on Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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Iymnok
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:19 am
Miracles only take place today when hidden. We daven the whole 9 months for a healthy baby. So many things can go wrong. If we don't know then a huge nes can occur. Once we see the problem, it can't since we are not worthy enough to witness it.
In a nutshell, please don't bash me
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sky
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:21 am
| Iymnok wrote: | Miracles only take place today when hidden. We daven the whole 9 months for a healthy baby. So many things can go wrong. If we don't know then a huge nes can occur. Once we see the problem, it can't since we are not worthy enough to witness it.
In a nutshell, please don't bash me |
thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one. So far everyone has been really respectful.
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amother
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:24 am
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Recently I was told that the research shows that vaccines cause childhood cancer. Since my son lived through childhood cancer, BH, she felt it important to share with me. Has anyone else heard this theory?
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Raisin
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:30 am
| Iymnok wrote: | Miracles only take place today when hidden. We daven the whole 9 months for a healthy baby. So many things can go wrong. If we don't know then a huge nes can occur. Once we see the problem, it can't since we are not worthy enough to witness it.
In a nutshell, please don't bash me |
I don't think this is the reason why the Rebbe was against them - more that since it is a fairly new technology, we don't know what effect it has.
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Scrabble123
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 10:51 am
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I know that I posted it on another thread, but most of the Chassidishe people I know vaccinate. I only know two individuals personally that do not, as well as have a neighbor who does not. I know a woman who makes sure to give everything according to schedule, and she told me that her son's cheder is extremely on top of vaccinations (and it happens to be Satmar cheder). There was a woman in Monsey who told her grandchildren's schools to court because they wanted to not allow the children to attend school during an outbreak because they were not vaccinated. Non vaxxers are the minority, but the problem is that they belong to be a 1% and they may be at a greater percentage: say 3-5%. I think that it has to do with the lack of education and willingness to "follow a crowd," as well as a lot of misinformation without a way to really verify it. Some of what Maya said may be at play for some individuals, as well as other factors.
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Ruchel
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 12:24 pm
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Highly location dependent. The charedim by me (Jews as a whole, the frummer the more) are very very anti natural...
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Notsobusy
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 4:28 pm
Sky and Iymnok, that is an interesting perspective, but I was under the impression that there are times they will find an issue with an ultrasound and they will be able to fix it. Obviously I am not a medical professional, so I can be wrong 
I do know someone who did not have any ultrasounds taken, I don't know why, and they were not aware she was having twins. Unfortunately there was a complication during the birth of the second baby, and the baby did not make it. I don't know all the details, but it seemed like if they would have known it was twins, there would not have been a problem.
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amother
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Tue, Feb 03 2015, 5:24 pm
My mother-in-law had an ultra sound and had surprise twins.
I know a girl who was surprise triplet after multiple ultrasounds.
You would think a twin could be found by heartbeat as well.
My sister-in-law typically does not do ultra sounds. Her most recent baby she had to have multiple ultrasounds because of issues. Turns out her baby was born with a defect that could not be operated in the hospital she gave birth in and was not stable enough to be transferred. They had to fly in doctors before transferring the baby. Ironically when the hospital looked at her ultra sound they did see the issue, but said most drs would not see it because it is so hidden and so small. Ultrasounds can only see so much.
My Dr also agrees with my choice not to do ultra sounds (probably more then a few people here don't do them). he said that most issues that are fixable can be found by checking the heartbeat with a doppler. And if there was a suspicion at that point he would insist on an U/S, which I would be fine with.
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dancingqueen
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Wed, Feb 04 2015, 11:05 am
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I do know people who have needed in utero surgery for issues that were picked up by ultrasound, so it would be hard for me to go with that ruling. If a pg is known to be high risk can exceptions be made or if the mom is just nervous?
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southernbubby
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Wed, Feb 04 2015, 11:24 am
| dancingqueen wrote: | | I do know people who have needed in utero surgery for issues that were picked up by ultrasound, so it would be hard for me to go with that ruling. If a pg is known to be high risk can exceptions be made or if the mom is just nervous? | It isn't a halachic ruling. It is the Rebbe's preference for the safety of the mother and baby. Plenty of Lubavitch women have ultrasounds for valid reasons.
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Fox
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Wed, Feb 04 2015, 11:43 am
| glutenless wrote: | | who are these ultra-Orthodox who don't vax? Is it talking about anyone who is not MO, is it yeshivish people, chassidim. charieidim? |
This is one of the reasons I *really* dislike the term "ultra-Orthodox." It's offensive while simultaneously imparting no information whatsoever.
Jews are halachically observant or not. If some are more "ultra" than others, it can be discerned by Hashem, but probably not by neighbors or journalists.
But the term is generally used in the media to mean "Jews who dress differently than my friends and I."
So it's basically insulting to everyone: it implies that MO people aren't as scrupulous in their religious observance, and it lumps together observant Jews in ways that are generally inaccurate. It's just lazy and sloppy.
I don't expect every op-ed writer to learn the differences between Belz and Bobov, but there are plenty of writers whose fingers and word counts are seemingly uninjured by using "observant Jews" or "observers of Jewish law."
If journalists and writers can learn the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, surely they can wean themselves away from "ultra-Orthodox."
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imaima
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Wed, Feb 04 2015, 11:43 am
| Jewishmom8 wrote: | all my friends and I Vax.
I know that there are some people who see drs privately who don't want to be on kupat cholim they pay privately to vax |
Did you feel in some way that I was talking about you and your friends in my post?
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