Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

Barbara

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:21 am

amother wrote:

Somehow even though Im an extremely open minded person, this issue bothers me because its sort of like saying

"G-d, you messed up".

Please dont compare this to an illness or a deformity that people operate for. Imho, G-d knows which Zex to create each human. Imho its a revolt to G-d's wishes.

Why not compare it to an illness or deformity? What's the difference? In each case, you're altering, or attempting to alter, the expected outcome.

Cleft palate, club foot, hypospadia, etc. That's what Gd intended, I guess.

Cancer, chas v'shalom? Treatment is a revolt against Hahshem's wishes for you. I mean, if you believe that everything happens for a reason (full disclosure -- I don't believe that), well, then, He gives children cancer for a reason, and who are we to change it.

MrsDash

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:22 am

amother wrote:

HindaRochel

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:27 am

ora_43 wrote:

A responsible doctor will always encourage patients to undergo life-saving treatments, and discourage unnecessary surgery. Doctors aren't at all required to take a neutral stance toward treatment. Of course they shouldn't bully, and they can never force treatment.

Or are you saying "reassignment" surgery is nothing more than a matter of personal preference like cosmetic surgeries? Because that was basically my point, that if the two have similar risks, they should be treated as similarly neutral.

I'm saying a doctor gives facts and advises people based on the facts. That is different then media presentations of the situation or a global discussion. Since, in this case, the client is the one who knows what they are feeling and there is not yet, at least that I know of, a way to determine the emotional state of a patient save by their own declaration, the doctor doesn't need to encourage or discourage.

They need merely to provide information, support, and recommend, based on what the client says, proper treatment.

If this is what you meant we are in accordance and it was only semantics.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 9:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

Right, but then you need an equal approach to encouraging/discouraging surgeries. Nobody is arguing that if someone feels like their body should have bigger boobs or a different-looking nose, they have a condition for which surgery is the only effective treatment. And AFAIK nobody is shutting down discussion of the possible downsides of such cosmetic surgery.

I'm not saying that "reassignment" surgery should be treated the same as a nose job. But the possibility of regret means it would be irresponsible to promote it as *the* treatment for gender dysphoria, or to not at the very least give proportionate coverage to its potential downsides.

(Also, it's much more feasible to reverse breast enhancement surgery than to re-grow a p*nis)

In the US it takes 2 years to qualify for gender reassignment surgery (bottom surgery as it is called). Two years of weekly shrink apts with a specialist and continual medical monitoring of HRT by an MD. It's a bit more complicated than an elective rhinoplasty.

33055

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 9:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

I am confused. Jenner has a penise. He told his children to call him Dad. Isn't Jenner androgynous rather than female? Any idea at what criteria is for someone to be female? I imagine if Jenner goes to prison say for the women killed in the car accident involving Jenner in February would Jenner be assigned to men's or women's prison. How do they handle the open showers?

I understand others in Jenner's position (breasts and penise) in NY would be housed with the males. Why can't those people be female if Jenner can?

33055

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 9:06 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Are there no requirements for males to get breasts?

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 9:14 am

Squishy wrote:

Are there no requirements for males to get breasts?

All choices on top surgery are elective. In some cases HRT is enough to give some male breasts. HRT therapy also shrinks male gonads. In some cases when top surgery is performed it's a very long process of multiple surgeries to stretch the skin to allow room for implants. (In some instances skin transplants can also be used.) The majority of trans people do not elect to have bottom surgery.

marina

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:28 am

ora_43 wrote:

1. As magenta said, you must go through tons of counseling before you are considered ready for gender reassignment. Not so for other surgeries.

2. It's not presented as "the" treatment- it's an option. Potential downsides I'm sure are legally covered extensively. No surgeon wants to get sued b/c someone killed themselves and blamed it on the surgery.

3. It's very different to say: "hey, this surgery is a pretty extreme approach and you need to be very careful and think about the risks and whether it's worth it," and saying" You are crazy and you don't need surgery, you need HELP. And those people who talk about surgery have an agenda and they are harming you!"

marina

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:33 am

amother wrote:

I think this can be flipped the other way, too.

Funny that the shrillest voices when it comes to opposing circumcision--a practice that the American Academy of Pediatrics considers to be beneficial to the newborn, that carries risk factors some deem to be lower than risks associated with piercing ears--are also the loudest supporters of people's right to engage in self-destructive behaviors for all matters s*xual.

To be clear. As Torah Jews I agree that we should be compassionate toward individuals who are suffering. But, as I noted several pages upthread, I think that the reason compassion sometimes seems a bit muted is because people fear the radical-left agenda driving all the publicity. The same agenda, incidentally, that would love to outlaw circumcision.

the difference is that in a bris you are doing it to someone else, like hinda rochel said, without their consent. No one is in favor of you going around and performing your own transgender surgery on whomever you like. Also it's illegal.

marina

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

Uh, well, what are your thoughts on children born androgynous or hermaphrodites? What happened to God's knowledge about which seks to create everyone? And what should those people do? Live like that because that's how God made them and he knows best?

amother

Cerise

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:41 am

MrsDash wrote:

Nice.

I still havent heard what even ONE Rabbi's thoughts on this topic are. Havent ANY Rabbis given their opinions on what they think the Torah's opinion of transsexuality is? If its definitely within Torah guidelines and acceptable to categorize this change the same as any other medical procedure or treatment needed for physical or emotional health, why hasnt one Rabbi come forward and said that publicly?

Please just ONE open minded middle of the road Orthodox Rabbi, speak up and say something on this issue.Why leave us in the dark and guessing?

marina

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:49 am

Quote:

I still havent heard what even ONE Rabbi's thoughts on this topic are. Havent ANY Rabbis given their opinions on what they think the Torah's opinion of transsexuality is? If its definitely within Torah guidelines and acceptable to categorize this change the same as any other medical procedure or treatment needed for physical or emotional health, why hasnt one Rabbi come forward and said that publicly?

Please just ONE open minded middle of the road Orthodox Rabbi, speak up and say something on this issue.Why leave us in the dark and guessing?

Enjoy amother ! http://www.sojourngsd.org/blog/tzitz

Last edited by marina on Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:50 am; edited 2 times in total

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:50 am

Squishy wrote:

Androgyny is a combination of male and female characteristics. It is also sometimes used to describe some intersex individuals. Many androgynous individuals consider themselves neither male nor female without a driving personal gender preference. It is not a term that is used to describe trans people or intersex people.

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 10:54 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

Enjoy amother ! http://www.sojourngsd.org/blog/tzitz

What a great article TY Marina.

IBID "The Tzitz Eliezer's response shows us that a surgical transition (or really, any kind of gender transition) is important - so important that we must thank God for it and acknowledge it every day. (People assigned male at birth but are actually females should say "according to God's will" as their blessing, he says in a separate responsum.) Remember - this was one of the leading halachic authorities of Orthodox Judaism!"

MagentaYenta

Fri, Jun 05 2015, 11:22 am

amother wrote:

How would they survive? Maybe there can be a group for trans members.

It's a pity you don't come out and use your own moniker for snarking. Maybe we can have a separate group for folks who don't have the courage to snark under their own screen names and depend on amother?