Basar Vichalav for kids

Ima'la

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 9:08 am

amother wrote:

when a person doesnt wait bet milk and meat it affects thier neshama. same with any other mitzvah, whether they are technically allowed to according to halacha or not, they should wait. they are ppl just like us

There is a difference between the mitzva d'Oraisa and d'Rabanan. As long as meat and milk are not eaten TOGETHER (which is not recommended), it is not an issur d'Oraisa and unless I am mistaken, does not cause timtum halev. The original question is not about eating it together.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 9:11 am

I've heard in the name of a Rav in our community that it's one hour per year of age (till 6?). I didn't hear this thing about starting from 3 though.

Practically, we have always waited the full amount of time. My children nursed, so we didn't have milk bottles anyway. After that, they were eating regular meals, and drinking from a cup, so they could drink juice or water just like the rest of us. As BY says, the meat meals are at night anyway, so waiting time is not felt.

I'd say let your friend be, her child is getting the nutrition he/she needs, even if she doesn't give him milk bottles with his meals.

As far as phytoestrogens from soy, maybe if you don't rely on soy (or soy formula) for every bottle, but only give it during the waiting time, it's not such a cause for concern.

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

It doesn't damage your neshama to follow halacha. And the halacha is that a baby doesn't have to wait.
The Torah issur (prohibition) is on eating meat (beef, lamb, goat etc) with milk at the same time.
There is a rabbinic prohibition to eat milk and poultry together.

The amount of time to wait is dependant on different communities' minhag. There are communities where the adults wait only one hour between meat and milk and they are following halacha.

I mentioned before that comments like yours make me Puke

. You are not talking halacha here that any rav would endorse and you don't seem to think it's a problem to compromise the health of the precious neshamas entrusted to us because you have invented some "chumra".
Let your baby eat milk after cleaning him thoroughly/ washing his mouth out. Ask your rav what to do about a 2 year old.
You know, maybe instead of inventing chumras for babies you should wait 24 hours after meat for milk, because that's an opinion mentioned in the gemorra.

TzenaRena

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 10:13 am

shalhevet, although I respect your halachic knowledge, don't you think that's a little extreme what you are saying? Confused

It doesn't have to be a compromise on the child's health, if there is more waiting time.

if it is, it's a different story and we all know we should ask a Rav, and act accordingly.

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 10:31 am

Quote:

I also nurse my kids for a long time, so there is never any issue of a child needing a milchig bottle/cup anytime close to a meat meal.

Quote:

My children nursed, so we didn't have milk bottles anyway.

Is 'mothers milk' really not milchig at all?? Interesting, so theoretically an adult can drink human milk together with meat? or is there an inyan of 'maaris ayin'?

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 10:37 am

TzenaRena wrote:

shalhevet, although I respect your halachic knowledge, don't you think that's a little extreme what you are saying? Confused

It doesn't have to be a compromise on the child's health, if there is more waiting time.

if it is, it's a different story and we all know we should ask a Rav, and act accordingly.

Tzena, the way you said worked for your family didn't compromise your child's nutrition. breslov said the people she knows don't give a baby chicken so as that he won't have to wait 6 hours. And the amother above implied that people were damaging their child spiritually by not making them wait 6 hours even as a baby.

I want one person to say here (not anonymously) that she/ her h asked a rav and they told them a baby should wait 6 hours! I'm sorry, but NO rav would say such a thing. I think amother's post was much more extreme and it could do immense damage by encouraging people to sacrifice their children's health for something with no halachic basis.
Again I'm not talking about a 2 yr old with some understanding, and different nutritional needs. Of course everyone should ask a rav. I'm talking about babies. (Note also that breslov's acquaintances and the amother mentioned nothing about asking a rav.)

mimivan

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 11:03 am

Shalhevet, I also respect your position, but I don't see why there is a need to "sacrifice" a child's health. If she nurses a baby, or uses soy milk etc...the baby will be missing nothing.

we waited the full amount of time, but we knew it was permitted to do otherwise. Since I was nursing, it wasn't an issue (and fleish was at night)..the only issue was at gan when they would give the child fleish in teh afternoon. The ganette thought I was strange for asking if they had meat, but I preferred to let him wait a certain amount of time.

In the days before soy milk and supplements, I could understand why it would be dangerous to practice these "chumras." But with so many resources..well, to each her own!

(I can also understand not wanting to do so)

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 11:15 am

Mrs. XYZ wrote:

Quote:

I also nurse my kids for a long time, so there is never any issue of a child needing a milchig bottle/cup anytime close to a meat meal.

Quote:

My children nursed, so we didn't have milk bottles anyway.

Is 'mothers milk' really not milchig at all?? Interesting, so theoretically an adult can drink human milk together with meat? or is there an inyan of 'maaris ayin'?

It's completely pareve. I think you may need a siman just like Coconut or Almond milk, but never really looked into it since I never had an adult wanting to drink EBM at a flieshig meal -- or any meal for that matter Wink

Ruchel

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 1:57 pm

When I married dh I switched from 6 hours to 3 hours, and it will be much easier for the children... not to mention for me Very Happy

yay for Italian rite (they are actually Ashkenazim who adopted some Sephardi customs on kashrus and Pessach).

melalyse

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 8:51 pm

My Rabbi (my husband) says that you can just clean up DS (20 months)after meat and give him milk. All of you must have really well behaved kids that have deep understanding at a very young age. DS many times screams for "milky" while he is eating his chicken. It is very hard to have him finish his dinner and clean him up so I can finally give him his "milky". I can't imagine saying "Sorry sweety you have to wait 3 (or 6 hours before you can have your milky".

cdawnr

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 9:11 pm

melalyse wrote:

I can't imagine saying "Sorry sweety you have to wait 3 (or 6 hours before you can have your milky".

Yeah, and my little 3 yr old lawyer would turn around and either negotiate or tell me it was 3 hours... LOL

gryp

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 3:39 pm

The problem doesn't arise in our house. We have fleishigs only for dinner, or if we have for lunch then we have for dinner too.

If it does happen that it comes up and I can't get out of it, I have given milk formula an hour or so after dinner but not past 1 yrs old.

Quote:

I agree with you amother, to some extent. I also don't like when babies are considered "just babies" andthey can do whatever they want. I don't allow my babies to be mechallel shabbos purposely, and kashrus is important too.
A baby's want is different than a baby's need.

gryp

Thu, Jul 12 2007, 7:36 pm

Ice? Milchig ice?

I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't buy string cheese, it's too expensive. Not that my kids mind, they tasted it once and thought it was weird.
I buy yogurt only on sale, only big tubs, and add fruit to it.

My kids don't need to snack after dinner, anyway. They are still little.

For snacks we have fruit, nuts, healthy crackers and healthy cookies. (You know the kind I mean, CM Wink

)

And some nights we have pareve or milchig anyway.

Anyway, I've said this all before in the old thread. I just wanted to point out that amother's post should not be discounted.

miriamnechama

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 7:04 am

I wa discussing this once with a friend.

1 all my familly in holland wait 1 hour only, between meat and milk - it the minhag there. my mother also waited 1 hour. my friend quoted a rov many years ago do'nt remember who where and when tha paskened in those days that he didn't have to wait between meat and milk, strange but heard it once.

my 4 year old waits about 3 hours and the elder one wits the full 6 hours. he's almost 8

chocolate moose

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 9:28 am

GR wrote:

Ice? Milchig ice? I'm not ashamed to admit that I don't buy string cheese, it's too expensive. Not that my kids mind, they tasted it once and thought it was weird.I buy yogurt only on sale, only big tubs, and add fruit to it. My kids don't need to snack after dinner, anyway. They are still little. For snacks we have fruit, nuts, healthy crackers and healthy cookies. (You know the kind I mean, CM Wink

) And some nights we have pareve or milchig anyway. Anyway, I've said this all before in the old thread. I just wanted to point out that amother's post should not be discounted.

I'm not "pointing the finger" at GR, I just wanted to see what ppl did.

The summer I was a counselor at Camp Emunah Tiny Tots, I used to daven at what was then called Big Emunah. One of the administrators used to be in a quandry as to what to give her kids to eat on the long Friday afternoons. At one point, she gave them salami sandwiches. Horror of horrors, she found them later eating (michig) ice cream sandwiches!

Truth be told, 25 years ago, pareve ice cream wasn't so prevalent like it is today, but you get my drift. Some kids, specially really little kids, don't think, or don't know to think.

Raisin

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 10:12 am

mimivan wrote:

Not everyone can nurse, and soy formula is not the best formula, it is considered second best.

TzenaRena

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 10:28 am

breslov wrote:

Yes, its important to not give your kids treif- but waiting between milk and meat is not clear cut halacha, and kids not waiting is not the same as giving them treif...

I just want to point out at least for the Lubavitchers on board, that in one sicha the Rebbe mentioned the temptation to eat something before the full six hours are up, even when it's already five hours and fifty nine minutes, and how we have to be careful not to listen to the yetzer hara. So as far as we are concerned the halacha is very clear cut.

If the minhag in your community is six hours - as it is for the majority it seems- one minute earlier is an issur of Basar BeChalav, regardlesss of the fact that there are those who keep a different waiting time. {talking about general waiting times, not babies.)

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total