Who does one turn to?

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Dec 03 2015, 7:58 pm

Taupe, well said! Not too many on this sight seem to understand how stuck the op can feel. You feel like your hands are tied. You know what needs to be done. But we can only wait for dh to get it. And do something about it! Btw, these men are not bad ppl. Or lazy. They can't help themselves. If only they wld listen to the DW or other ppl trying to help out the situation.

SRS

Thu, Dec 03 2015, 8:38 pm

Quote:

And all those posters telling the husband to shape up or ship out... well too bad for you, you're not speaking to the husband. YOu're speaking to his wife. She can only choose what SHE will do, not what HE will do. She does not have control over his behavior.

#1, no one has said "ship out." Shape up, yes.

#2, many of us commenting have had opportunities to influence/change our husband's behavior through a measure of wisdom. OP, don't throw in the towel. Be creative. Ppl respond to their environment. What change would make your husband say hey, I need to change?

amother

Linen

Thu, Dec 03 2015, 10:29 pm

Don't worry ... things will change as they can't go on like this forever.

Your dh will find something. He will .... you will see.

You turned to the programs ...that is very helpful. Between food stamps and wic and being able to put things down your account at the grocery you will not starve. Are you earning enough to cover tuition, rent and utilities? If not, you can discreetly call Mrs. Shanik and she will probably help you out a little with maybe gift cards to some local stores or something like that..your dh doesn't have to know.

I was there too. It got to a point where every single phone call was a collections call. I've had my water shut off ... my internet shut down for not making payments. There were times my car was on empty and I had no money to fill up .... only maxed out credit cards. I couldn't even afford to get my kids haircuts and of course no one got new clothing. And then .... things changed a little. Basically I can pay my bills now. If you were never in the situation where you couldn't pay your bills then you cannot imagine the peace of mind I have when I am able to pay.

It won't last like this forever. It can't. But I know that when you are going through this it is so, so hard. Daven you heart out ..with your own words and hopefully Hashem will send a yeshua very, very soon.

Bitachon101

Thu, Dec 03 2015, 11:03 pm

It's hard to read some of the replies.
Hearing things like I'm enabling him and whatnot make me think, hey maybe it is my fault he isn't bringing in money. Maybe I'm the cause of this cuz I don't take a frying pan and bang him on the head with it to knock some sense in there. Maybe it's my fault that he won't do something he isn't comfortable doing cuz it makes him anxious as h*ll and shut down mode cuz I "allow" it.
But you know what... I'm not going to allow these thoughts to add to my current stress because, one, it won't help anyone or anything right now, and two, I honestly don't believe I am enabling. I believe I am trying to survive and function and stay afloat in a situation, a test from G-d, that was handed to me. I have a family to feed clothe and provide for and when push comes to shove I need to be involved in trying to hold the fort.
I used to take the blame for his mistakes. Until I learned that I am not responsible for his mistakes. Yes, I need to live with the consequences of his mistakes or poor decisions and I need to try to help my family and kids not suffer from his mistakes but no I don't need to make shalom bayis any more difficult than it can be already.
I don't tell him "OK honey sit and do nothing til u find your dream job." Trust me I made him learn how to plunge the toilet and change horrible diapers even though he preferred to steer clear. Yet, we've discussed it like adults and sometimes although I don't agree with his logic he is still a person too with rights to feel human and he knows himself that he can not do a job that makes him anxious. (Therapy may be needed but that's a separate topic and complicated and another decision he has to make as an adult that I can't force.)
We have worked together to try to stay as far away from anxiety situations and by me punishing him or yelling at him to take a job as a bus driver or something he not OK with Is not only not going to work but going to bring him into a not healthy situation which will only make things worse.(not to put down bus drivers, my father was a rebbi many years ago and was excited to drive a small bus too!)

So instead, I've learned to help him feel respected as a person (call it enabling if you wish) encourage him to apply to jobs that are not totally on his radar but don't make him feel demeaned, and he sends his resume but doesn't get anywhere. He tries to follow up and doesn't get anywhere. And then he just loses interest. And goes back to working on his sales. And taking care of bills and errands and carpool and other stuff and also doing nothing at times and feeling depressed.
But I guess some of you call that enabling.
That's OK. But I'm not gonna accept it or internalize it.
(He is currently in touch with a career counselor but that's also not getting anywhere too fast...)

More than needing money to live on I need a home where it feels like a safe place for all occupants. And that is my first and foremost priority. And so I do not push him into a situation where he feels demeaned and trust me he knows we have no money, he hates that he has no decent job its depressing the daylights out of him.

I appreciate the encouragement, and some of you are super special ppl (u know who you are) and have sent me chizuk that keeps me going just to know that you care.

But to those who feel im enabling, please understand that by me now trying to be involved in getting him a job, its because aside from turning to HKBH I see that somebody needs to change status quo for the family to make it asap and if its not going to be him its going to have to be me. And while I don't have more hours to my day to work (and currently don't have another ounce of strength to work more) I feel like I need to turn to somebody who can make it their priority to pull him out of this rut my hook or by crook because he can't get himself out of it right now.

As I've mentioned, the job organizations are great but lo and behold are overwhelmed and he is just job seeker number 7,853.
I need an askan, that will make him job seeker #1 and while helping hand m maintain his dignity and simultaneously realizing the urgency of the situation to just hold his hand and give him the push to go forward.

Some ppl need that to get them moving forward or out of a rut. A cousin of mine that happens to be doing well in business, only got to where he is today because someone pulled him off the street and saw his potential and literally started him off in a business and it went upwards from there. I have no idea where he's be today 40 years later if that kind man hadn't done that.
Honestly, in my heart I feel like that is what is needed. Not pushing him into the dirt but pulling him out of it. Having someone see him and having a heart and saying I see this man has potential and has a family relying on him. I see he is desperate even though he hides it well. I will get him started off.... And let him pick up the pieces once he has that help.

OK maybe I'm dreaming. Maybe ppl like that don't exist today. Maybe I'm not davening hard enough. Maybe I'm just delusional. I don't know, all I know is that we want to work hard and want to feel like mentchen and if my kid asks me one more time for something and I tell him it's too expensive I think I might just break down crying in front of him. I don't want to take from ppl.
I don't know how to express it any other way. I feel like I'm writing a million words and not even giving the message of what I mean to say.

OK sorry, I'm hormonal and emotioanl and oh whatever. This post is way too long, if you made it this far you get a brownie point for patience.
If only I could spend so much energy on davening like I do here venting. Maybe I'd actually get somewhere.

Inhale. Exhale.

Where oh where has the humor side of me gone??? I need it back! Asap.
I need something to make me laugh really hard right now cuz I'm just gonna cry.

Bitachon101

Thu, Dec 03 2015, 11:08 pm

One more thing, for those that are telling the amother in similar situation that taking from family isn't hard....
Do you know how hard it is for me to ask my parents to pay for a bill?
Do you know how embarrassing it is for me when a relative tries to give me $500 cuz they feel like I need it?
Do you know how I would and could never ask my cousins that have money to help us out because of the humiliation and the scorning I know they will do that my dh can't get his act together??

Family or stranger, its humiliating.

Yes, some ppl get "supported" by relatives as a give in and take advantage, and feel its coming to them. But that is very dif from anyone struggling and needing the help from family. My heart is with all of you in any struggling sitch whether or not your family is the one to help.

finallyamommy

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 4:38 am

OP, can your husband network with his friends? When my husband was looking for work at the same time I was in school and we weren't sure where rent/food were going to come from, he sent an email out to everyone in his contacts saying "Looking for work." An unlikely shidduch came about when his rav, who is also a therapist, sent my husband to a client of his who was on the verge of a nervous breakdown because he didn't have enough workers in his business (that all came out later of course, at the time the rav just said "I have a job idea"). That was almost three years ago, and DH has recently been promoted to manager with twice the salary he started at. Hatzlacha!

shoshanim999

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 10:31 am

Bitachon101 wrote:

If you live in a frum community like Brooklyn or Lakewood, as I'm sure you know, it is extremely common to get help from parents and grandparents. I would imagine the overwhelming majority of these families are getting help without giving up there dignity. I don't think they have to call and beg there relatives to try to send them a couple bucks at the end of each month. No, I don't think its fair at all to compare the families that are helped by parents/grandparents and the families that are calling tzedakah organizations to help them buy food.
As far as your husband goes, I agree with you. I don't think its worth pushing him into a menial, low paying job with no growth prospects if he will feel humiliated with the job. You never answered if he ever had a job that he was happy with?

Bitachon101

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 10:42 am

He had jobs he was happy with (and they were happy with him) though they were only temp positions for particular projects.
He can be happy in a healthy setting for him.
He isn't looking for a 100k job.
He would take an entry level for starters even as long as there is room for growth.
Though the jobs that he was happy with and successful at were management and assisting project coordination and customer service.
The truth is his current "job" in sales online with leads sent to him he was OK with too and was being successful at first but his market kind of crashed and he puts in hours upon hours and only gets paid per sale. And when there are no sales he can be working around the clock for months with no pay.

mha3484

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 10:49 am

Does he have a degree or is he willing to take some courses? If he likes office work, I have plenty of ideas. I work with people to find jobs. A four year degree is not always necessary but a set of courses that give you a marketable skill can get you pretty far. You can often do this at a community college or online.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 11:49 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

It is not up to you to decide what is "fair to compare". Different amother here but it is hard, very hard, asking for help. Even from family. Maybe because in your community it is "expected" doesn't mean it is where we live, in our family, in our circle of friends it is "expected". And expectations don't always make it easier. It is hard to be constantly compared to the sibling/cousin that is doing well. To have every purchase questioned (and they see often what you buy because it is family).
Everyone's situation is different.

Simple1

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 12:02 pm

It is very hard and I agree people shouldn't jump to saying you're enabling him.

If he doesn't want to work in a grocery store, maybe he can get along the same lines (cashier, shelf stocker) but in a store that's more "chashuv" to work there - such as a sefarim store or businesses such as furniture or whatever. People may even assume he has a manager position in the store. I know of one particular working bachur who got a job in a sefarim store, so I don't think such jobs are too hard to come by.

In fact, if he's really capable, such jobs can sometimes lead to promotion to a higher position.

Also while I agree it's depressing to work long term in an unsuitable job, it may be more doable if he keeps in mind it's just temporary to keep him afloat - maybe he can even do this to pay his way through a course.

I've unfortunately noticed that PCS seems to be more helpful to those whom are easier to help and have focused career goals. It would be good if this could change.

SRS

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 12:13 pm

Bitachon101 wrote:

I do not know his skill set, but I regularly recommend this (and have recommended it in real life and seen it succeed). Suggest to your husband that he brush up on some skills and apply to every temp agency in a 30 mile radius and then take what comes. I enjoyed my own temp agency work and found it to be valuable experience and a good experience at self-discovery. One of my own temp jobs involved filing once a week. I did not like it, but I found I could build endurance towards the task knowing that it was temporary. The experience itself gave me valuable information on building systems that I have used throughout my professional career.

Sometimes temp jobs go from temp to hire, but perhaps your husband, understanding they are temporary positions, will find it more tolerable.

bigsis144

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 12:13 pm

I just want to give you a hug. Your anguish is so clear from your posts, and I want to tell you that you are strong and brave.

I truly wish I had advice or something to offer, but I don't. So for now, from one soul to another -- tilchi m'chayil el chayil. You are loved.

shoshanim999

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

We can disagree. In my opinion it is usually harder to have to divulge embarrassing financial stuff to strangers than it is to tell parents. Also, in many situations kollel families (including some of my relatives) get monthly financial help without any embarrassment at all. I would imagine that every single person that finds themselves in a situation where they have to call tomchei shabbos, feels terrible.

amother

Indigo

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 12:40 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

You are comparing apples and oranges. When you choose to take money from family because you are living the kollel lifestyle or going to school, it's an arrangement that was agreed upon. This is very different than having to ask for help because of a difficult situation that came up. While it's still better to know you can count on family rather than tzedaka, it is very painful to have to ask when you are used to being independent and fine on your own. I am currently dealing with a medical situation. I have medical bills even though we good insurance. The issue has put me out of work for now, but requires me to have a significant amount of household help. So we turned to family. I know we shouldn't feel bad. They're happy to help, and we would do the same were the roles reversed. It is still very painful to have to rely on this degree of help when we're used to taking care of ourselves. Dh is having a harder time with it than I am, and it's his family providing most of the assistance.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 1:14 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

But tomchei shabbos or tzeddakahs aren't coming to your house for shabbos and you aren't exactly going to them for Channukah. They are not going to judge if you felt tonight's dinner had to be on paper. There is a level of distance with organizations that you don't get with family.
And unlike Kollel families or where someone is supported through college, asking families for help is not part of any arrangement. It is embarrassing.

amother

Jade

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 1:24 pm

I'm so sorry you are having a difficult time OP. Hugs and hatzlacha.

I just want to say that I have a BIL and SIL in your position (don't worry, we live in a different city!) We all agree that my BIL needs to lower his job expectations. My SIL may agree too. But, it is her job to be his wife. It is NOT her job to be his career coach or mashgiach. Granted we all feel this way and some family members have told her to tell him to lower his expectations. Such things only cause more pain to her and to him and may impact their shalom bayis. They are good people trying to make their way, they are not trying to make my way or your way. The job world is hard and sweeping floors is very difficult to accept. Its easy to tell people to work for Target, but, it is hard to actually work loading shelves at the local target as your friends are shopping.

If not for our rebbi, my dh may have taken a job out of state and we would have lived apart for a year. Our rebbi told my dh to turn down that job and take the lesser one in our city that is still an amazing position. It is still hard for him. One was a job he would have loved and the one by us is a lesser job. It was very hard for us and we have very good college degrees, good grades and internships and were choosing between two good choices. Taking a lesser job is hard for anyone. Including OP's dh.

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 2:14 pm

Bitachon101 wrote:

Hugs to you. I don't think anyone means to be Blame you and add to your pain. You seem like a great person who doesn't deserve this stress. That said yes, I think you and dh are living in a bit of a dreamworld. There is no fairy godfather who will come hand your dh the job he's looking for that will make him happy and not anxious be prestigious and earn lots of money. If he is not trained in a specific field than he really might have to start with a more menial job. As others have pointed out he can then work his way up. There's no shame in an honest living. Many of the tanaim amoraim rishonim and achronim did jobs like working in a grocery store, and other jobs considered more "blue collar" now.

bluebird

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 3:43 pm

The best thing for him to do right now might be to apply for work at a temp agency again since it seemed if worked for him last time. They will assess his skills and match him with positions that fit them. The work may not be steady if he's filling in short gaps for companies need them, especially if it's part time, but it will be a paycheck. If he knows there is an end date, working in a job that isn't the ideal fit for him can be more bearable. Chances are good that he'll eventually get a long-term temp assignment, and that can turn into being hired by the company if he does well and a position opens up.

I did this and it worked out very well for me.

I think your husband would also benefit from having a career mentor or taking some classes. They will teach the emotional skills he needs to get last the mental barriers you describe, and he'll learn good skills in general. Universities often have an extension program offering classes like that. A

Last edited by bluebird on Fri, Dec 04 2015, 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ginger

Fri, Dec 04 2015, 3:47 pm

can your dh contact any of the temp jobs that he had in the past where he was happy? may be they have another "project" or something he could do?