Spinoff: supporting your kids, is it really a favor?

amother

Teal

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 5:15 pm

As I wrote in the other thread, I feel that my inlaws' generous support has perpetuated my husband's entitled, spoiled attitude. He thinks certain things are the norm, such as a lot of cleaning help daily, lots of takeout often, pricy red meat every shabbos, going out to steakhouse semi often, buying coffee out, and ordering things from Amazon daily. I grew up poor and had to calculate each purchase, and whether I could buy the yogurt/fruits and veggies that were on the expensive side. I think there needs to be a balance, but my husband freaks out every time I mention a "budget." He wants to walk around with hundreds of $ in cash to just have on hand- without it he feels stressed out. He feels restricted and stifled at the thought of having to stick to a budget.
He also has a sickening attitude toward gifts- he says statements lik, "I should call old aunt Gertrude because she'll probably send us a check if I do." It just sickens me. (He happens to be a wonderful, giving and considerate and loving husband, this is one of our only issues, so don't start thinking he's a monster!)
What I'm saying is, I think parents are doing their children a disservice by handing them a credit card in elementary or high school to be used at whim (or even with a high budget), and then continue ing this support once they get married. A normal part of life is being a student (or kollel) and living on a students' salary. This teaches strength of character, resourcefulness, happiness that is not dependent on materialism, and other good traits. If a child never learns to do with less, he or she is poorly prepared for life, in my opinion.
What do you think?

amother

Jade

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 6:01 pm

I am a successful attorney
With one main exception,
I lack any savings
Or even a modest pension.

When my oldest son went to Yeshiva
I was optimistic.
I thought he would study for a year or two,
Then get realistic.

Fast forward to today,
My eight children learn full-time.
Every minivan and Bar Mitzva
Is paid for on my dime.

Trying to cover all the bills
Is actually quite tough,
Because my salary after taxes
Just isn't enough.

My peers of my advanced age
Have partners in learning.
But I am so preoccupied
With how much I'm earning.

I have pleaded with my kids
To get a job or a degree.
"Have Bitachon" is the sole response
That they all give me.

Sincerely,
AT WITS END

Author's note: Feel free to publish it anywhere and get any money for it.

tigerwife

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 6:05 pm

amother wrote:

Oh my

Your poem is great, though. What would happen if you start 'weaning' them off support, or at least full support?

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 6:11 pm

I don't know - we lived fairly modestly our first year or two of marriage but still went into debt once we had a baby and I stopped working - we were not supported at all. But at that stage we definitely calculated every purchase.

Then, my husband got a good job with a great salary. We saved money but also we didn't really budget much. I never looked at food bills, we ate out pretty often - not every week but a few times a year. We bought stuff. Our expenses were pretty low then with no tuition. Now our kids are older and we have tuition and bar and bas mitzvos and it is really tough. I wish we would have saved more then. Sad

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 6:17 pm

I am in college, I have a baby, and I'm working. My in-laws pay my rent, and yes, it's a huge favor. I would not manage otherwise. I'd have to work more hours and drop out of college without this help. I'm very appreciative that I get this help, and I know it's not something that I deserve. But without it, I'd be in real trouble at this point... I'm not saying everyone should support their children. People need to learn to be independent. That's part of getting married... But if someone is trying to build themselves up (I.e. they're in school) or if someone is really in a difficult financial situation and their parents are able to afford it, why not help them out temporarily so they can get out of the rut they're stuck in?

Amarante

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 6:57 pm

I think the issue is whether parents can afford it

IMHO, no one should be supporting children unless they are supporting themselves which includes sufficient savings.

How are the children going to support the parents if the children are incapable of supporting themselves. If parents have no retirement, then what happens?

I am completely in favor of parents providing financial assistance so that children become economically self sufficient provided the parents have the ability to do so. But I just don't understand a system in which grandparents provide support for children and the parents then are unable to support the grandchildren.

And of course, to the extent possible families should be there for emergencies and if feasible to help with treats. But again, I don't think parents should be providing the income that the children are unable to provide unless it is a situation of extreme wealth where the money is going to be inherited and in trusts anyway.

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 7:03 pm

My parents paid nothing from when I finished sem, all my college tuition, rent (I had to move out to study in a different city), food etc I paid for myself. They did pay for half our wedding but that was really for them and their friends, as dh and I would have been happy with a small, self funded chasuna.

They didn't feel my secular college education was something they wanted to pay for, unlike all my brothers and bils who had 5+ years of full support at kollel and lived at home until marriage, fully funded and never worked, with the usual complement of good quality clothes, shoes, hats, free use of the cars, holidays, endless spending money etc.

I have been paying my own way since I was 18, whether married or not and live a far more austere lifestyle than any of my supported siblings despite being the highest earner, as I still have all my tuition to pay off. Que sera sera. I think they did me a favor, however inadvertently.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Dec 21 2015, 7:05 pm

I don't think it's so black and white as to say support = entitled and no support = not entitled. There are good ways and bad ways to support/help out adult children. There's a difference between supporting for a few years while they finish school and find jobs vs for years on end forever and no discussion about turning over the reins to the child. There's also paying for a big ticket helpful thing- like education or a down payment- and buying latest-model cars and over-the-top simchas. Also, it's so important to be frank about these matters. My parents and ILs did support us for the first two years while we finished school and also paid for our educations (stuff they would have done even if we were single). Then we did everything on our own for years, and the fact that we at one point were supported didn't make that harder or make us incapable of budgeting or able to do without, because we had to budget and live simply when we WERE supported. Now they have offered to help us with a down payment so we can own a home. We are tremendously grateful, and it's not like we think this is some blank check to buy the prettiest, most expensive, most customized house on the block just because we're getting that help. I do know people who do treat their parents as a blank check, and that is unfortunate, and definitely unhelpful support. I know people who are not and never have been supported who have a totally entitled attitude, always thinking "everyone else" gets supported and complaining that they don't. They may not be actually living it up, because they don't have the help (or they are, on credit cards) but the attitude is there.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Dec 22 2015, 3:08 am

In the neighborhood I live in (in Israel), I know many families where he's in kollel, and she doesn't work. Sometimes either the husband or the wife has some small income but can't be much. So they must be getting support. But I don't get how the parents do it. These are friends of mine who are my age (low-mid 30's) with 4/5/6/7... kids. Some even have a car. And some of them come from big families with many other married siblings.

I personally have a different issue--- my husband is in theory looking for work but has certain issues that are preventing him (or should I say make it much more challenging) from searching for suitable employment. In the meantime, between my small salary, his kollel and the small income he has we definitely don't cover every month. But somehow for the past 12 yrs we have made it. And the last few years of "making it" has meant by the 2000 shekel a month my mother is nice enough to give me and when we get stuck he asks his parents for money. Why they agree I am not so sure. I think one of his parents is very generous type. But honestly, if they would stop agreeing to give him money he would push himself to make more of an income.

Right now we live what according to Israeli kollel standards is a rich life, according to working people is totally not. We have a small car, I will occasionally order the kids pizza or buy them falafel (once a month at most- probably more like 2 months), we use napkins ( I once went to someone's house that were in such a tight situation they bring kitchen towels to the tables to wipe hands on!), my electric bill is pretty high (1,000 -1,700 shekel) because I use a dryer, etc etc. We spend about 10-15000 shekel a month (no mortgage).
(Then again there are many people who can't pay their grocery bill but are adding on an addition to their apartment- because the supportive parents decide what they will support for and what they won't)
This is not a tremendous amount to cover, but since we are being quasi- supported we don't. Our joint income is about 8,000 shekel a month.

It's a big zechus to support kids, but you shouldn't drive yourself to the grave over it ( I know someone who had a heart attack in middle of his 8th daughter's wedding...)
And then the bigger question I always ask is, who's going to support your kid's kid's???

There should be some rule or form to supporting from the start. How much/how long/ what for. Obviously things come up and you should bail out when you can, but I don't know how the next generation is going to make it.
Adults shouldn't stay children forever. And this is coming from someone who needs the support herself!

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Dec 22 2015, 7:14 am

This whole thing makes me feel so sick. My husband has been in kollel till now with parental support from his parents and mine. Mine stopled after shana rishona and his are continuing indefinitely. He doesnt even go to kollel. He just stays home, goes shopping and chilling anx buying things for me (cuz hes a sweetheart and loves me and wants to buy gifts...) and then im working my butt off and not missing even when I have a fever because I dont get paid if I dont show up and we need every cent so I cant miss.
Hes starting his degree in a few montha and im so scared that he wont be commited enough.
Thw most kollel hes ever done with no breaks is 3 weeks. And then he says he needs a day off. And its only for 3.5 hours a day. Hes so unreliable it embarrasses me.
Hes really caring and kimd and I love him so much but I get so fruatrated at him
Maybe cuz im sick and at work anyway.
Bottom line is: his parents work hard to support us and I work hard so they wont have to anymore asap cuz I feel bad. But he just doesnt pull his weight.
If he cant do 3.5 hrs a day hows he going to cope with 9-5 of college???

imasinger

Tue, Dec 22 2015, 7:16 am

I think the entitlement has less to do with support than what happens in the home while growing up.

If you're not taught the basics of financial responsibility, or the importance of doing unpleasant tasks like budgeting, it doesn't matter whether you are getting funded or not; you will have problems.

Although I wish my DD had had the chance to do more advanced math in BY just from the intellectual perspective, I am very grateful for what replaced it. A business math course hat drilled into these girls, "PAY OFF YOUR CREDIT CARDS MONTHLY!!"

I wish a course like that was more routinely taught in yeshivos and mesivtas as well.

OP, financial issues are one of the biggest things that couples argue about, and with good reason. It can be a real issue. Stick to your guns about budgeting. It doesn't matter what your income level is; we all need to know how much is coming in to our banks, how much is going out, and be sure we are saving enough for the future.

To the poet, I thought at first your poem was a parody. How does on become a successful lawyer and mother of 8 without ever learnng how and when to say no?