S/o emotional and physical abuse in schools

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 11:30 am

The thread about the cheder in Tel Aviv is so horrifying, that I didn't want to minimize it by posting there.
I live around the corner from an upper class public school. I have heard endless shouting, degrading comments and rough pushing by teachers. When I was a kid, my classmates and I would secretly pity the public school classes we'd meet on school outings. Our teachers were loving and gentle, theirs were often military-like. We spent half the school day under the care of non-jewish teachers and had first-hand experience. We knew what it felt like to be called names or made fun of by your teacher. We were lucky though, because we felt safe and protected by our kodesh teachers and staff. They always defended us.
As parents and as a community, we owe it to our children to give them the very best. But to insist that this is exclusively a problem in charedi society, is denial.

amother

Gold

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 11:38 am

This seems to be a big generalization, that all ur teachers were so loving and great and the public school teachers aren't. Throughout my Bais Yakkov education, I've had some great caring teachers, and I've had some that were mean and not understanding at all. It's like with everything in life- you have some bad apples in the bunch. I'm sure not all public school teachers are amazing, but I'm sure many are. Also, a public school teacher is a lot more likely to get brought to court or fired if they are verbally assaulting students, especially so publicly that you, a passerby, hears it happening.

Maya

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 11:53 am

You claim to have heard endless shouting and degrading comments. Okay. Please explain how you also "heard" rough pushing. Isn't that something you need to see, not hear?

Also, please explain why it never occurred to you to step inside the school building to report these behaviors to those in authority. Was it because secretly you were happy it was happening so you could prove how great Bais Yaakov is and how terrible public school is?

One more thing. The other threads are discussing Cheder boys, not Bais Yaakov schoolgirls. There's a world of a difference between those two.

Chayalle

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:00 pm

Maya, I still remember my kindergarten teacher slapping a student who had an accident.

One of my DD's had a first grade teacher who punished her for being late after recess by making her stand in front of the playground on a boiling hot day for the duration of an entire recess. I felt this was harsh for a first grader and I (politely) let the teacher know I considered it unacceptable. I stood outside her classroom in the hallway and observed the teacher's teaching style - she was one tough lady, yelled at students, etc....Ten years later, I switched my younger DD's class to avoid this teacher.

My older sister remembers being accused of lying by her first grade teacher, who put a piece of duct tape over her mouth and had her stand in front of the class that way all morning. She did this to other students as well.

I agree, it's not so prevalent, but abuse does happen in girls' schools as well. I wish we could put a stop to it.

5*Mom

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:20 pm

amother wrote:

That is horrible Chayalle. I think what that teacher did can be considered abuse and if it were my child I would have reported her to the administration and made sure there were consequences.

Reported her to the administration? I would have reported her to the police.

Duct tape over a child's mouth is a serious offense. As long as we pussyfoot around it and report crimes to the administration instead of law enforcement we will have more of the same to look forward to.

Last edited by 5*Mom on Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:34 pm

Maya wrote:

I live around the corner and pass the schoolyard daily. I have never said anything b/c this behavior is considered normative and a culturally acceptable method of child-rearing. As I said, I also experienced it first-hand at the hands of my own non-Jewish teachers. I do not mean to minimize the problems in our schools, I want to put the truth out there. All children in the care of powerful authority figures are vulnerable and need our protection.
The default mode of communication by frum teachers is not shouting! I have never heard a frum preschool teacher yelling in a playground, "Enough! Stop It!Do not act like an animal!"., at a hapless 4 year old. Our non-Jewish teachers ridiculed weak students and used terminology that we found offensive ("sit down on your butt!"). The local schools have since stopped hiring these teachers and replaced them with wonderful, qualified frum women.

heidi

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

OP, I don't know where you live. But any society that thinks this is culturally acceptable behavior in 2016 is most definitely third world.
And I couldn't disagree with you more.
My son's dati leumi teacher once pushed a kid. In 8th grade. That kid's father was there with the police within an hour.
And that my dear, is why it is exclusively a problem in xenophobic charedi society.

debsey

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 1:56 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I will never forget this story. In second grade, I wasn't the neatest kid. One week, I had decided to turn over a new leaf, and I was really trying to be as neat as possible. We all used communal supplies in those days - glue containers, crayons, etc. One of the glue containers was put back all messy (drips of glue flowing down, glitter stuck to it, etc)

My teacher saw the glue bottle, said "Debsey, it was you." I tried to protest (remember, it was THAT WEEK that I was really trying to turn over a new leaf, maybe my mother made a sticker contest for me or something)The teacher walked over to my desk, picked up the project we were working on, said "Obviously it was you, you're the messiest girl in the class, and look at your project. It looks like a kindergarten baby drew it." She made me stand in front of the classroom for the entire Hebrew holding the glue bottle with one hand and my "babyish" picture in the other hand. Every time someone came into the room, she made sure to announce why I was standing there.

I never told my mother because I didn't know what to say.........and I had a great relationship with my parents. I just didn't have words for the story, it was too big for words. Nowadays, I probably would have gotten some OT. To this day, artistic pursuits are not my strong suit, and I'm not the person you want doing fine-detail work. I don't even think I was messy back then. I just had undiagnosed OT problems.

If that happened to my kid today, a lawsuit would be the LEAST of the school's problems. I tell my kids the story, and I tell them you always tell a Mommy, even if you have no words, I promise to hear you out and I promise you won't get in trouble.

Is that the same as being slapped? I think it's emotional abuse, which can be just as bad. BTW, this teacher was still teaching as recently as 10 years ago, I happened to have met her in a professional context.

Mama Bear

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 2:12 pm

My son attends a yiddish speaking class inside a public school. I have to tell you that almost every time I go to the school for PTA or the IEp meeting I go home horrified listening to how some of the teachers of the non-Jewish classes speak to the kids. The put downs, the name calling, the threats. and then I watch the parents come to pick off or drop off their kids, and they act the same way. It makes me feel so sad. The kids in the school are K-5th. They are so young and innocent and they get damaged by all this negativity and shouting. ugh.

myself

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 2:17 pm

debsey wrote:

I never told my mother because I didn't know what to say.........and I had a great relationship with my parents. I just didn't have words for the story, it was too big for words. Nowadays, I probably would have gotten some OT. To this day, artistic pursuits are not my strong suit, and I'm not the person you want doing fine-detail work. I don't even think I was messy back then. I just had undiagnosed OT problems.

If that happened to my kid today, a lawsuit would be the LEAST of the school's problems. I tell my kids the story, and I tell them you always tell a Mommy, even if you have no words, I promise to hear you out and I promise you won't get in trouble.

Is that the same as being slapped? I think it's emotional abuse, which can be just as bad. BTW, this teacher was still teaching as recently as 10 years ago, I happened to have met her in a professional context.

The bolded is the biggest problem in the fight against abuse. There are definitely more kids opening up these days but there are sure to be many who hide the truth. Years ago it was often seen as 'normative' and some parents believed that their kids must've deserved the punishment they received. Boruch Hashem things have changed in that respect.

With that in mind we really need to keep our eyes and ears open at all times. It's such a pity that suspicion is at every corner these days but it's become a necessary evil.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 2:26 pm

I think it's just how outside society speaks as a whole.
It's not meant with any ill intent.
Always went to public school, and if I were told to go sit down on my butt, it was because that's the way we talked.
In the yeshivas it's done with the intent to manipulate, and CVS, feed their disgusting, sick, addictions.

When DS was in first grade he got screamed at for not being in his seat when the bell rang.
Where was he? Holding the door open for this teacher.
Excuse me for raising a mentch.
This was day 3 of 1st grade. I home schooled him the rest of the year, 1/2 a day. Actually I worked, B"H , I was lucky enough to let him be at work with me, my last 2 hrs of the day. I had to pay someone to bring him to me though, a parent from the 1/2 day nursery class.
The school's only reaction was that I still needed to pay full tuition.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Aug 03 2016, 3:08 pm

amother wrote:

You are applying a double standard. It is never ok to speak to a child agressively. My point is that every society has its own cultural norms as to what is considered normal. The non-Jewish teacher who would grit her teeth and hiss at my classmate "if you do that one more time, I'll throw you out the window", was acting within her own cultural parameters of normalcy. That doesn't make it any less abusive.
Even in the US, it is still legal for public school teachers to hit kids in 19 states!
http://www.businessinsider.com.....014-3
The problem is way bigger than we think.

debsey

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 10:27 am

Laiya wrote:

Debsey, what a horrible story. I just repeated it to some of my kids, with the same lesson. So thanks Smile

When dh was in first grade, he was happy to have the "nice" rebbe. The other first grade rebbe once threw a brick at a kid's head (luckily missed).

I happen to think things are changing across the spectrum. A teacher today would not get away with this type of conduct - the girls would come home and tell their mothers, and there would be an outcry. In this sense, the younger, more educated mothers have effected change. Of course, things can still happen, and I think we're slower to label emotional abuse as abuse, but I think it's slowly changing and getting better.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 04 2016, 10:51 am

I agree, Debsey.

I think that today, if a young, inexperienced teacher would discipline in an excessive way, the kids would tell their mothers, and the teacher would be told to tone it down. If it continued, she would be fired. By the time the teacher would be considered an experienced teacher, hopefully her teaching method would include skills that help her discipline appropriately.

Years ago, this did not happen and you would hear about a teacher being considered experienced, and people assumed if she was being mean that it was fine, the teacher must know better. Like the teacher that taped my sister's mouth shut - she was considered one of the schools veteran mechanchos (though every single little girl hoped to be in the other class. Everyone I know who was in her first grade class has a miserable story she either experienced or witnessed).

My point being, abusive teaching has to be stopped early on, before they are set in their teaching ways. Teachers are getting more guidance, more skills, to help them develop into good teachers.

In my DD's school, I've noticed something interesting: the principal tends to hire new teachers as substitutes. If they work out well they may get a full-time teaching job when an opening comes up. I've seen this in action: One of DD's teachers was out on maternity leave. The substitute teacher really developed a good rapport with the girls - they really liked her. I once picked DD up from school, and the principal passed me and asked me my opinion on how the class is working out with the substitute teacher, and I told her how I generally dislike when my kids have substitutes but this one is really going well. The kids are not miserable, and it's going well....The next year, there was an opening and she got the job.

And I've seen the reverse - a sub who was very strict, borderline mean...and she has not gotten a job in the school.

There's more awareness. It's a good thing.