Selecting a neighborhood

amother

Black

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 11:40 pm

amother wrote:

Charedi Israeli is not the same as Charedi American. I question if a more daati leumi community would be a better fit for you. Being black, educated, sephardic, american, and BT--however crazy and stupid this is--are all considered negitives in mainstream Charedi Israeli society. I wouldn't want to raise kids in a place where they were looked down on for nothing shameful at all.

I would stay out of Jerusalem at all costs, it sounds like the opposite of what you want: cramped, not pretty, small properties, close minded, conformist, not friendly, very rigid.

naharia, rechovot, beer sheva...?

It is not simple at all to raise children well in Israel. It is completely different than American mentality. The rules are so different and foreign.

Just wondering why you are seriously considering Aliyah when you haven't been there and didn't even research it that much?

If anyone should do well there, it was me. I dressed the part, acted the part, had a learning husband, went to bais yaakov, spoke Hebrew and was very aidle. But the school system was SO not for me. Smell of urine everywhere, no parental involvement, lax security measures, lots of hitting and yelling for discipline, and general hefkairos. I couldn't stomach sending my precious children into such a society to be left to his own devices. And I didn't have any stereotypes that they considered negative besides American.

I think you are speaking about Charedi schools here. There's a much more "hands off" approach to raising kids, but lots of children raised in Israel turn out just fine, thank you very much.

And why on earth would you discourage a Jew from moving to Israel??

nia73

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 11:44 pm

Are all charedi schools anti-parents w/secular ed? We do not have obvious things like TV but have smartphones and laptops for work. We do not want secular exposure for them, not even sports, secular kids things or army (I know waaay far ahead).... but understanding the polarization, do we need to just do like we do here and keep to ourselves for the most part in a more open kehillah? I do not work now because no religious sitters are around &/or daycare. I know most people use non-Jews but.... machmir

essie14

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:04 am

ProudMommie wrote:

B'SD

I really think that a pilot trip is a waste of money, so if you have lots of money to spare you could maybe give tzedakah to a worthy cause and that will increase your chances for siyata d'shmaya. (I am sure I will be attacked as usual for whatever I say). What I am saying is that you are coming home after a long absence... and it takes work to make your home the way you need it to be... think about coming home after a vacation and the balagan... etc...

I know this is your opinion and maybe it worked for you but I know several families who made aliyah without pilot trips and they had to move back to America -- they simply had no idea what they were getting themselves into AT ALL.
OP has NEVER been to Israel. She must come at least once before deciding to actually make aliyah. This is not some "stars in her eyes" college student. She has a family who need to eat and a roof over their heads, as well as education.

DrMom

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:53 am

ProudMommie wrote:

This is the worst advice ever. A pilot trip is an excellent way to see communities up close, see if you "click" with the members of a community check out schools, maybe even make professional connections, etc. We live in a community with lots of recent olim and all of them have attested to the fact that pilot trips were an invaluable component of their selection process.

I don't understand why anyone would discourage someone from doing proper hishtaldut before making such a life-altering decision as relocating to another country.

Teomima

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 1:53 am

A pilot trip does not have to be about deciding whether or not to movemove. You can be sure of your decision to make aliyah but still benefit from the opportunity to better prepare yourselves. Visit various towns, check out schools, meet communities. Use the resources here, I'm sure you could get Shabbat invites right through imamother. I'm not in any way questioning your decision to move. But coming before seeing anything, meeting anyone, or personally checking out locations could cause trouble. You don't want to move your family from town to town if you find you're unhappy somewhere. A pilot trip could save you all that hassle.

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 4:02 am

Carmiel is a great town. The charedi community is very welcoming and the school is great (Amichai)! The school director is chassidish but the kids come from all over: charedi, ashkenazi, sefaradi, DL, Ethiopian, Russian, anglo olims etc.!
As said by another poster, the landscape is great and you are less than one hour from Tsfat, Meiron, Naariah, Haifa, Acco etc. and in 2017 there will be a train so the connection to Tel Aviv etc. will be direct! The town is really clean and beautiful.
The housing is really cheap compared to the center.
If you do a pilot trip I'd definitely suggest you to go there!
(Anon because I don't think there are a lot of Carmielis on this forum :p )

heidi

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:20 am

nia73 wrote:

Your smartphone and laptop exclude you from really fitting in to a typical Israeli charedi community.
PILOT TRIP!!!

heidi

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:25 am

nia73 wrote:

Your smartphone and laptop exclude you from really fitting in to a typical Israeli charedi community.
PILOT TRIP!!!

cbg

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:41 am

You got some really good advise.
My advise is don't buy an apartment right away.
Rent if possible for 6 months, if less is possible better.
This way if you feel your not fitting in your only there for a short while.
Look for a shul that best fits you.
Community life in Israel is NOT the same as community life in Israel.
Also, you need to have a strong connection with a rabbi to guide you spiritually and emotionally to the change.
I suggest you contact Rabbi Alon Anava. He's BTDT rabbi, moving from US.
You can contact him through his website.

I also live in SFl., but my heart yearns to be in Israel.
I admire that you are making the move without ever being in Israel.
WoW.
Hatzlacha.

nia73

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 6:33 am

BH. Thanks ladies. I love watching R' Alnon's lectures! I thought he was there already no? But may I ask BTDT.... baal teshuva DT?

Also, I wear tichels and not stockings but maxi dresses only. Demure colors like powder blue as an example, & closed shoes. We are not Zionists however and are against putting our children in the army. Does that become a problem outside of charedi circles such as DL/Torani/Chardal?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:44 am

In my experience, race plays a huge part in how you are perceived here.

Nahariya has a lot of Black and interracial couples, and no one says anything to them. There is also a large Ethiopian absorption center here, so seeing people of color is not unusual at all. We also have a lot of Temani people, who are often darker than most African Americans.

I actually feel like Whitey McWhiterson when I go out! My daughter has blond hair and blue eyes, and she is treated like something exotic wherever she goes. The other girls in her class cannot keep their hands off of her long, straight hair. LOL

I wouldn't cross the "army" bridge until you get to it. I think at dati/torani school would work really well for you. The vast majority of girls do Sherut Leumi, so I know that there is not a huge amount of pressure in the Dati schools regarding army service. You have plenty of time to think about what to do for your boys. Don't build your entire decision around that one issue.

One thing to keep in mind, is that it's galus here, too. Israel is amazing beyond words, but it's not perfect by any means. Whether you succeed or not depends 100% on the attitude you bring with you.

water_bear88

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:55 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I agree with you very much, including not letting future army service be the deciding factor in making aliyah or not. I do feel the need to point out that as much as there isn't pressure in DL girls' schools for them to go to the army (if anything, the opposite, especially in Chardal schools), there's way more pressure on boys to serve than there is in almost any other sector of society. Of the men in my family and acquaintanceship who've served, several have minor-to-moderate medical issues. Most of those felt internal and peer pressure to fight for as active a combat role as possible so fought for a 72 profile to get into artillery or tanks. (You need higher to be in other combat units, any lower and you're only allowed desk-jobs.)

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 9:07 am

nia73 wrote:

Lol Whitey McWhiterson.

My first husband was Black, so I'm particularly sensitive to undertones, sideways glances, and other social issues that a lot of people would miss. I may have privilege, but I'm still super uncomfortable in places where bigotry is shown, no matter how small. I have zero tolerance for that kind of environment.

amother

Amethyst

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:21 pm

Dear OP,
Wow and good for you! You sound like a wonderful person with great ideals and values. We have tried and tried to make aliyah work for our family (are still in America) but have hit too many stumbling blocks so I really respect your desire to make it work.
We have done a TON of research and taken multiple pilot trips so what I am sharing is based on our research and talking to a bazillion people.

The 3 communities that probably make the most sense are:
Karmiel, Rechovot, and RBS. Note that we are Ashkenazi and white so I never researched any of them from a Sefardi and black perspective.

Karmiel was up and coming a few years ago. A number of families jumped on the idea of an open minded out of town community with a chareidi presence. The majority of those families left within a few years. They were not welcomed into the chareidi community and schools and there was not a large enough infrastructure in the community to give them what they needed. I have lost track of the people there (bec. everyone we knew who moved there moved out) but please research carefully and make sure that it really is a viable option today.

Rechovot is lovely and you should look into the Chatam shul. (google Chatam Rechovot) and you will find their website. We spent a Shabbos there and were super impressed. American Yeshivish Rav, great cheder and BY, open minded, etc etc.

RBS-people say its mini America but I can tell you that of all our multiple friends and relatives who tried to make it in more Israeli cities, almost all of them ended up in RBS after a few years. (including all those Karmiel folks). It is a city that has the tolerance you are used to in America with a great sense of community and support, multiple schools to meet the needs of all different types, etc.

Good luck and please keep us posted!

p.s. why Modiin? that is a typical dati leumi community-no chareidi presence.

nia73

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 5:35 pm

Thanks so much. Yes someone hust advised not to bother with Modiin. I think I read NBN wrong. These responses have DEF helped us narrow fown areas of focus and we greatly appreciate it. To anyone that wanted to make aliyah but didn't just know I empathize. At the end of the day, we struggle here and figure why not struggle where it is worth it?

BH this is where we have to feel trust in HaShem and build emunah for sure. We feel like am Yisrael before entering into eretz Yisrael and the spies derailed them with all sorts of warnings. We paid for that immensely because we spoke lashon hara about the Holy Land and added 40 urs of sorrow for it. That perspective is what keeps my family and I focused on what we all as Jews wiol ultimately do.... return home. No matter the fear of unknown, HaShem feeds the smallest ant and largest creature. How much more so his children. Not all rose colored glasses, but facing our test in this life no matter the hardship.

May HaShem give us all strength as we enter into Elul to make teshuva, correct our middot, and accept what HaShem has given us!

Tel Tzion Ima

Wed, Aug 31 2016, 8:24 pm

I've skimmed through some of the responses, but I did not read them all, so I don't know if any of this will be repeat information. If so, sorry.

I live on a Charedi Yishuv.

My kids go to wonderful schools, new buildings, great staff. My son is in the Ashkenazi cheder, and right next door is the Sephardic one, also new building great staff.

The Beis Yaakov in our neighborhood is mixed Ashkenazi/Sephardi, and actually well over 50 percent of the girls are Sephardi.

There are a handful of Black families on our yishuv.

As far as I'm aware bcse I tend to live in my own English bubble, there is no discrimination felt by Americas or BTs (I'm BT) or Sephardim. Rav Shlomo Amar visited Tel Tzion a few years ago and was very impressed with the achdus and gave his bracha to our yishuv.

My husband and I both have college degrees and are BT and are American and getting into the schools here were no problem.

We're 5 percent Anglo. And maybe 20 percent olim (Russian, French, South American, etc) Kids very much become integrated. Over 50 percent Sephardi.

There are sephardi, ashkenazi, chassidish, litvish, chabad, etc. here.

My sephardi Israeli neighbors, the father is a lawyer, so higher education.

I know an English speaking doctor who used to live here who worked in hospice. If you/DH would to network with him in terms of finding hospice or similar work, pm me.

I also know an American doctor who made Aliyah to Carmiel a few years ago. I could also put you in contact with him.

I agree with a pilot trip just bcse so many places are so different from each other. I've lived in three different areas in the 14 years I've been here, and there are a lot of differences btwn places.

I've very tired and pressed for time, so I know I'm being more rushed than I would prefer.

If you would like more details on my community or information on the other places I've lived, please PM me.