One of Us (new documentary about ex-Chassidish ppl)

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:32 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Of course all of these things may be true. I do not pass judgement on any of these people. I don't know them or their stories. But also don't pass judgement on the accused. I have no idea what their stories are either.

I think we are playing the same side, of non-judgemental.

das

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:35 pm

[quote="amother"I have yet to meet one person with mental illness that was not abused in their life.)]

There's no such thing as a stress free life. You can always point to stress that brought out mental illness. There are plenty of ppl with charmed lives battling mental illness and ppl who have been to hell and back in perfect mental shape. I know several ppl with mental illness who will readily admit they have no reason to be depressed and yet, they are.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:37 pm

amother wrote:

Do you honestly think that mental illness is only caused by abuse? My sister had a nervous breakdown at 14. No abuse. Regular loving home.

Yes, I honestly think so. You weren't around her 24/7 to be able to vouch that she wasn't abused or gone through trauma in any way.
Also, as we are slowly seeing, regular loving home can mean a lot of different things. I'm not saying that you have to, but if you were posting under a screen name that showed a track record for being emotionally intelligent, honest and attuned, it would be a lot easier for you to make that claim.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:39 pm

das wrote:

I know plenty of people who readily admit that they have no reason to be depressed because they are not in touch with their feelings, as a bodily defense mechanism. And it's obvious, when you dig a little deeper into their past as to why their body needs to shut out the feelings.

freedomseek

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:40 pm

Oh come on everyone!
Just because you're chassidish doesn't mean you must cover up for all its flaws!
There's really a lot that can improve.
And for all those who claim it's only abusive parents, I strongly disagree. The system is set up in a way that practically deprives you of freedom of choice. If you don't feel it, then either the way of your family worked for you, or you're so brainwashed as not even to think freely!
That doesn't negate its positives. But this is a very destructive point.

Zehava

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:42 pm

amother wrote:

This
I had a friend advise me to do as she does. Put my feelings in a tiny box and hide them away. This is how she copes.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:47 pm

freedomseek wrote:

That is so not the point here. At all!

Maya

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:48 pm

amother wrote:

Maya, I think the different experiences here aren't a contradiction; the difference lies in the fact that the people you mention are still mostly observant. As long as parents are under the illusion that they still might have some sort of influence over the child - which they usually don't, but that's besides the point - they'll sometimes act differently - and stupidly, I might add - than after they've lost all hope. When a child goes completely OTD, the parents will usually just try to come to terms with it. From what I heard from a mother of an OTD son, the Chassidish support groups and madrichim for people in her situation encourage them to treat their children with utmost love and respect. And these are all people over 45, mind you.
I might be wrong here, but I'm assuming that the parents in the cases you mention will also reduce or completely end their mistreatment once they realized that their child, although still religious, has paved a way in Judaism for him/herself and will not change.

So you're saying that I need to go completely OTD if I want people to start accepting and respecting my lifestyle choices?

amother

Seashell

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:50 pm

amother wrote:

Floralwhite, I read your post and it really touched me that innocent children go through such pain and suffering, and at the hands of those that are supposed to love them most.
I could just cry and cry reading a post like yours.
I do want to say that I suffered from extreme anxiety disorder, and acute agoraphobia as well as severe depression. And I grew up in a very stable home, where both of my parents were very devoted, loving and giving. I think it may have been somewhat genetic although I never know for sure. It's been Hell to go through and may noone ever know the pain. I cannot post under my screen name but would be willing to pm Yael so she can confirm I'm a regular poster.
I get very worked up over child abuse posts so I hope it's OK that I hug you and bless you that you should only know of good people in your life. People who treat others the way they'd want to be treated and the way the Torah advises us to treat others, especially our loved ones.

amother

Violet

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:52 pm

amother wrote:

Okay, so we agree that it happens in abusive, dysfunctional homes.

We agree that a child who grew up in such a home may end up with severe ptsd.

We agree that this may lead them to act in ways that are not okay, and that they can not excuse away based on their experiences.

We can also agree that a child who grew up in such a home, may end up marrying an abuser, because he or she did not recognize the signs as being abnormal.

We may also agree that these people may have been abused, as they are claiming, and they may not realize that these things happen outside of their community, because their abusers bring religion into the abuse cycle.
Or it can be that they were born with mental illness. (I have yet to meet one person with mental illness that was not abused in their life.)

I can't judge whether or not what they are doing is right. That is way too big for me. It's also too big for any of us to judge any of the people involved. We can refrain from doing, supporting, or watching what they are doing, if we feel that this is right for us.

I was just really upset about the shaming that was going on in this thread, and your post was just the perfect question to answer to show how things are not always how they seem.

Mentally ill people often abuse their offspring and that offspring may marry another such abuser. Such is the cycle of abuse. It is not the cycle of chassidim or any other community.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:56 pm

amother wrote:

I am sorry that my post caused you pain. It was unintentional. Please forgive me.
Thank you for the Bracha.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 9:58 pm

crust wrote:

Floralwhite amother. Hey. I like your posts. You explain everything so efficiently. Thanks.

I don't agree with her posts at all.
Claiming that all those with mental illness must have all been abused is almost as presumptuous as claiming that parents are to blame when their kids go otd.

And I'm not sure what my sisters illness has to do with said anonymous amother not believing my post because it's anonymous like hers so she can't determine my emotional intelligence in order to know whether to believe my claims. What BS.

MrsDash

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:00 pm

amother wrote:

Mental illness here and no previous or current history of abuse. Under my screen name too! I think I have a pretty good track record... Then again, I'm crazy, so who knows? Silly

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:00 pm

amother wrote:

Mentally ill people often abuse their offspring and that offspring may marry another such abuser. Such is the cycle of abuse. It is not the cycle of chassidim or any other community.

Exactly. So then it is possible that a child came from an abusive home, and acted out in school, and then went on to marry an abusive guy.
The fact that she may have been troubled as a child does not make her story completely implausible.
That was all I was trying to say.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

I have every right to use my mind and state my opinions. You don't have to buy into them, just like I don't have to buy into yours.

BTW, you are absolutely right that I lose a lot of credibility by posting anonymously.

I'm sorry for offending you, but know that it was not personal until you made it personal, by bringing a personal issue into a theoretical conversation.

amother

Lime

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:03 pm

Maya wrote:

So you're saying that I need to go completely OTD if I want people to start accepting and respecting my lifestyle choices?

Definitely not. Why the bitterness?
I was just making an observation, pointing to what might be the reason of these different experiences shared here, and why they may all actually be the norm. It all depends on when the parents come to the realization that they have zero influence or control over their adult children, which tends to happen sooner in cases of complete OTDs.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:05 pm

amother wrote:

I have every right to use my mind and state my opinions. You don't have to buy into them, just like I don't have to buy into yours.
I'm sorry for offending you.

Of course you can state your opinions.
But it's very rude for an anonymous poster to tell another anonymous poster (who is being anonymous because she is disclosing details about family members) that you can't know whether or not to believe her story because you have no way of being able to track her previous post history to determine whether she usually posts in an emotionally intelligent way.

I'm also not sure either what my emotional intelligence (or lack thereof) has to do with my sisters and how that adds or takes away from anything being discussed here.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:10 pm

amother wrote:

I thought it was obvious that when someone posts as amother, it's like they are brand new to the whole website. Sometimes people post outrageous things, and I've learned over time not to respond to them. That's all I meant. Meaning to say, when I read a post, I take into account the poster's previous posts.

I have a certain opinion. You countered that opinion with a story to bring as proof. I didn't accept the story because I don't know you. What you call a stable loving home, may or may not be a stable and loving home. There is no way for me to know. I don't know you. I explained why in the original post that upset you.

Again, my apologies for causing you pain.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Sep 10 2017, 10:13 pm

amother wrote:

I thought it was obvious that when someone posts as amother, it's like they are brand new to the whole website. Sometimes people post outrageous things, and I've learned over time not to respond to them. That's all I meant. Meaning to say, when I read a post, I take into account the poster's previous posts.
I have a certain opinion. You countered that opinion with a story to bring as proof. I didn't accept the story because I don't know you. What you call a stable loving home, may or may not be a stable and loving home. There is no way for me to know. I don't know you.

So you're happy to to accuse all parent of mentally ill children for not giving their kids a stable loving home?

Because that's basically what you've just said.