Imamothes please identify ur 'sector'..

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:02 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

by whom?
and I grew up MO and we were always called frum.

and it doesnt hurt me. it just shows how sheltered so many women here are and just dont know any modern orthodox or just plain frum women. modern orthodox jews are frum like chassidish people, like charedi as well.

As etky just said, frum is just yiddish. dati and orthodox mean the same.

But maybe that's cultural - maybe in whatever European country OP lives in there are different terms.
I mean for us the term "dati" or "frum" means a certain thing but this might mean something else in OP's community. Like the difference between British and American English.
It is conceivable that if they speak Yiddish as a first language they'd have other interpretations of certain words that have become common in English.

Edit - sort of like a the turn of the twentieth century "chareidi" was synonymous with Orthodox. But the meaning has changed over time to mean ultra - Orthodox - unless maybe you are in a very isolated community in which these terms may not have evolved.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:06 am

amother wrote:

This is going to get ugly. I'm sorry that you were taught such disrespect for other valid paths.

I'll give you a few examples, just so you know what's out there, but I really don't think it's a good idea to enter into a "my way is better than yours" debate.

As a general rule, MO poskim are more machmir than others in regards to taharas hamishpacha.

MO women fast on minor fast days. MO men are more likely than others to wear techeles. MO schools pay their employees on time, as per halacha, which is not always the case in other sectors. Zman tfila is rigorously observed.

And in a larger sense, interacting with the broader society creates opportunities for kiddush Hashem which don't arise for those who live in more isolated settings.

I'm sure there's more, but this is just what came to me "al regel achas."

Please consider why you need to denigrate a whole group of shomrei mitzvos.

So interesting. I never experienced this.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:08 am

amother wrote:

So then whats the difference?! Chassidish and chareidi ppl are known as ultra orthodox- what makes them ultra and the MO- just orthodox?

The way I learned it is that ultra orthodox people are holding of more chumrot than non ultra orthodox people.
We all keep many of the same things. We have the same list of 613 mitzvot. Its how people keep things that make them different.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:08 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lilac

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:10 am

amother wrote:

Wooow! I kept reiterating this wasnt a competition or any ranking of sorts!!
I am not saying who is better or worse..just trying to understand if Imamother is connecting FRUM women- who would that include!!

amother

Blonde

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:12 am

amother wrote:

I deleted my post when I saw that we were dealing with linguistic confusion. But seriously, if you met someone MO (and I'm guessing you don't know many such people) you'd say she's not frum???

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:12 am

amother wrote:

frum/orthodox/dati/religious ALL mean the same thing. And the definition of that word is one who keeps shabbat and kashrut and married couples ho keep taharat hamishpacha.
Forget about wikipedia. This is what we always have learned.

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 5:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Moreover, we (or at least I) consider certain streams of ultra-Orthodoxy as non or extra Orthodox streams. Many practices in other streams that identify as Orthodox are considered non-halachic or even anti-halachic, and therefore make them not an integral part of Orthodoxy, at least in my opinion. However, I am respectful usually, and if these streams identify as Orthodox I will not raise my torch to grade their level of observance, and continue following the best derech I know of worshiping Hashem. I understand that everyone is doing their best just like I am even if they may be misguided, according to my views.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 6:33 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

what do YOU think being orthodox/frum/dati/religious means? And why do you think modern orthodox people dont make the cut?

I don't think MO/Mizrachi/Dati Leumi rabbanim interpret the Torah and halacha as it should be done, so in my mind I disagree with those groups on many things, and don't think their path is valid.

But people in those groups are religious from an objective point of view. They follow the Torah to their interpretation, and fufill most halachos on a level I think is acceptable although again, many areas I do not think they do, and for that reason I do not consider these paths valid. If I thought they were the right path...well, I'd be on one of them. They are definitely more permissible paths than the one I live.

So religious, meaning they are living their life based on the Torah, and it defines most or all of their decisions, I would consider that to be a pretty good definition of someone religious.

etky

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 6:44 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Do you differentiate then between MO and traditional, observant Conservative Jews (they may be few but they do exist) who adhere strictly to the halachic decisions of the Conservative rabbinic leadership?

amother

Blue

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 6:47 am

amother wrote:

Thank you and as it happens I don't give advice or thoughts really when it comes to halacha or hashkafa, except recently when someone asked a question and I answered with what my rav had told me (I'd asked the question years ago when I was frum), and don't see why it would be wrong to answer as it's nothing to do with where I'm at now.
I wanted to just clarify that, for me that's a matter of respect I think, but I've been part of imamother for more than 10 years I think and have had support and have also given support to lots of women and unless I get told by yael to leave I'd rather not.

I hear you. Except that when you outed yourself and then mocked a poster for her belief in Hashem - your respect fizzled out.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 6:54 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Wow, if everyone thought the way you did, there would be exen more division than there already is. If modern orthodox people thought that the charedi or chassidish way of life as not valid, what then? We would each have our on separate judaism. Ho sad is that.

Can you tell us what you think modern orthodox people dont do in judaism that makes their religious ay of life nt valid according to you?

And why do you assume that a modern orthodox person is not living their life based on torah?

So many generalizations and so many non truths. So so so sad.

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 7:13 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Well, you have the right to think whatever you want. You should be aware that I too believe that your derech is very misguided and does not follow halacha or Torah, if I though you were doing the right thing I'd join you too. I don't believe in kumbaya.

However, I don't think I have the right to give you badge of observance. I figure if people claim to be committed to halacha and follow the Torah - they are frum, no one made me in charge of letting other Jews in to the clubs of legitimate Torah Jews. I appreciate their conviction, their zeal, and there is always something they do get right and can be learned from them.

So while I feel sorry for people who are practicing a divergent path I try not to voice these opinion unless I am asked by them or provoked by them so ironically claiming that my derech is wrong.

Yes, we all feel we are doing the right thing - that's why we're doing those things. But most of us have enough respect for others to appreciate that they are trying as well and if they say they are Torah Jews they probably are because being a Torah Jew is important to them. This is not to say we can't have debates and arguments and criticism of course, but when you disregard my starting point - really it is very hard to treat you with respect in turn.