S/O Enjoying your kids

FranticFrummie

Mon, Jan 29 2018, 8:45 pm

A couple of posters said that they did not enjoy their kids, and seemed to not be very happy in their lives.

I've been thinking lately, not everyone has the "nurturing gene" that makes them want to be good mothers. I think this is SO unfair to women who truly, deep down, should not have kids. They should have a clean house, a fulfilling job, and a busy social life.

Because of the roles that Judaism expects from women, we arent' taught that there are any other options besides having children. It's not just a Jewish problem either. Catholics and Mormons also have this issue.

It's been on my mind, because DD has told me a million times that she has NO intention of having kids, ever. Maybe when she's more settled, she'll think about fostering kids who are at risk. She doesn't want anything to do with babies. She'd rather mow lawns for money than do babysitting or mother's helper work.

When she was in a Jewish school, she always hated that motherhood was "pushed down her throat". I am a stay at home mom who loved every minute of having her, so it's not like she had a bad role model or unhappy childhood. She just does't seem to have that nurturing gene. It may show up late in life, or not at all. It may show up too late for her to be able to have a baby of her own, but she's willing to take that risk.

This is rambling, I know. Bear with me. From a feminist point of view, I think we should teach girls that they are not the ones who are halachically obligated to be fruitful and multiply. Make sure they know that it will cut down their shudduch prospects, but at least that they have options. Let them know that it's not shameful if they take another path, get married late, and choose not to have children (maybe finding a husband with a medical condition or inherited gene that would be problematic.)

If every pot has it's lid, then these girls who are not into kids should have the chance to build their lives on a model that works for them - not a one size fits all cookie cutter.

I would love to hear from the posters who are not thrilled to be mothers. Did you feel pressured into having kids? What part of society pressured you? What messages would you like to have heard when you were younger that would have been empowering?

I am not shaming anyone who is unhappy as a mother. That would be a quick, easy, and LAZY response. I want to know the deeper thoughts that are going on, and if there is any way we can educate our girls to make the best decisions for their futures, according to the way they are (and not just because we want grandkids.)

amother

Taupe

Mon, Jan 29 2018, 10:38 pm

I have a hard time enjoying my kids, but that's not to say I wouldn't want any kids.

I am a sensory introvert so to me, kids are "much". I need lots of me time to be able to handle them.

I had my first child 11 months after my wedding. Didn't know there's another option. Took another few kids to realize I can choose to become or not become pregnant. So now I'm focusing on the ones I already have. I do want more, and in the overwhelming moments I sometimes think, what's another one or two added into the mix here?

If I would have someone to do housework, I'd definitely enjoy them more. I think. So much of what holds me back is the housework that's waiting or the housework that is being created by their antics. Instead of seeing their adorable arts and crafts, I see tons of paper on the floor, glue on the table, etc. I see more housework which will take away more time from me to spend with them.

More money to replace torn/lost/dirty clothing would also help. BH we are doing fine and manage on a tight budget with cheap clothes. But I can't afford to buy a new pair of pants for every tree my son climbs.

amother

Tan

Mon, Jan 29 2018, 10:38 pm

I agree that there needs to be more acknowledgment that some people should not be parents and a certain percentage of such people are going to exist in the frum community. That said, I don't think missing the nurturing bit means that you shouldn't have kids. I'm definitely one of those who's not very nurturing or maternal, but I'm overall happy that I have kids. I do probably mother a bit differently than society thinks I should, that doesn't mean I'm not doing a good job of it. I sometimes wonder if some of the really unhappy mothers are trying to do things in a certain way due to social pressure and would maybe be happier if they said screw it and did what works for them. But yes, there are definitely people who don't really want to be parents, and indeed, nobody should be pressured to have kids if that's not the right path for them. Even if they are frum.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Jan 29 2018, 10:48 pm

I'm one of those women who is not naturally maternal, though because of our very child centered BY education, didnt realize this about myself until I had 3 kids in short succession. Dont get me wrong, I love my kids, but it's not the center of my life, I dont look forward to many aspects of it, and I find a lot of happiness in other things.
As time went on and I and dh began to realize this about me, we were able to restructure our lives and plans to incorporate both the child-centered nature of our culture (and dhs dreams) together with advancing my education, allowing me to engage in hobbies and other interests. I also spaced my subsequent 2 children much further apart so that I would have time to engage the other aspects of me that are more dominant. It has been a difficult journey for me and dh at times, especially coming to terms with the fact the I'm not the idealized version of the eishes chayil so glorified in our culture, but bh we have been able to find our balance.

unexpected

Mon, Jan 29 2018, 10:53 pm

I think it's entirely possible, probable even, that your daughter is still in rebellion mode and refuses any of the ideals that were pushed down her throat. As she matures, she will most likely change her mind. In general, I think that most people who say they don't want to have children are terribly afraid that they just don't have it in them. Having a child is absolutely the biggest commitment a person can make in this life. Indeed, it can never be undone. At the same time, there is nothing that engenders judgement the way parenting does, and if you fail your child will be a walking advertisement of your failure in your life's biggest venture.
That being said, I do feel that if our society didn't make such a huge deal out of it, ppl wouldn't feel pushed into it and spend so much time resenting the system for "forcing" them to have kids.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 1:46 am

When I was a teen, I hated that so many teachers discussed marriage and parenthood. I wanted to learn what was relevant to me *now*, in this stage of life, not what was relevant to the next stage in life. I was a good kid, and wanted to learn more Chumash or halacha, not listen to a teacher ramble on about how important it was to support your husband in learning. I also resented that the only way for a woman to be fulfilled was through her husband and children; so if I couldn't find a man to marry, or if Hashem didn't give me children, there was no way for me to be a good Jew? It seemed very much out of my control.

As an adult, I'm a good parent. I dislike the baby stage, but I genuinely enjoy guiding my toddlers and kids through life. I really like helping my children navigate through tantrums, sharing, and new skills and experiences. I'm not a pinterest-y style parent (my kid's birthday cakes are not works of art, their clothes are not fancy) and I also send them out to playgroup no later than a year. But I do what works for me, and I'm happy with how they are growing and developing.

amother

Gold

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 2:08 am

I am not the nurturing kind at all and in addition I grew up with an abusive father and a mother who could not cope with us 12.... I was always petrified of having kids.
My first I had after being denied BC shana rishona (That will never ever happen again)
But after I had my first I realized I had a heart full of love to dish out and was a really great mom, my fear was stopping me all along.
Thats why I had my second four years later.
I have two jobs In very different fields, that I love.
In addition my DH is very supportive and helpful. He knows he has to step up to the job because I would have probably never done it otherwise. And is constantly thanking me for birthing them.
That helps...
We are completely honest with our desires and dissappointments.
The fact that I can't handle or don't desire many kids and on the flip side, how he would love tons of kids.
I don't know if I will have a third in four years, ten years or never.
But we take life one day at a time.
I can't honestly say I enjoy every single second of parenting, But the older I am getting I am realizing that life is not meant to be enjoyed every second.
I definetely get much satisfaction and fulfillment from parenting and have become so much more mature and kind.
I pray (whenever I find an extra momment) that Hashem continue to give me strength to be the best parent to the neshamas he sent to me.

Teomima

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 3:20 am

I think your post was really well thought-out and makes a very good, albeit difficult to digest, point. I agree with you. You've heard from posters here who don't feel particularly maternal but still find enjoyment in mothering and that's great. I'll share a slightly different perspective:

I LOVE being a mother. It brought a meaning to my life I never knew was lacking. My own mother says I was born for this job, and I now see her point. My life happily revolves around my children (not in an unhealthy way. A while ago I finally got the opportunity, after seven years of parenting, to be a SAHM and I do make it a priority to carve out plenty of time for myself, my marriage, my friends, interests, etc. But my priorities are, first and foremost, the valuable and enjoyable time I spend with my children-as well as their health, well-being, education, etc. of course). HOWEVER, my husband suffers from several physical and mental health conditions, things that put a HUGE strain on my and our kids' lives, as well as our marriage. Were I not as strong of a maternal figure as I am, I doubt I would be able to fully care for my kids as they deserve, under these conditions. I see posts on this forum of women losing control due to complicated home lives and my heart breaks for them. Maybe someone is not naturally maternal but still had, and enjoys, their kids. But what happens when their world falls apart? Can they cope? I had to learn how to do exactly these things when my young (at the time) husband suffered a heart attack, or when he was hospitalized in a psychiatric facility, and many other occasions. Things beyond my control.

So building off what you said, in addition to knowing their options, women who lack "the maternal gene" but still opt to have children should do so taking full consideration of facts that may be beyond their control. They should question if they will be capable of being a single mother, should the situation unexpectedly arise. They should check in with themselves that they would be able, need be, to take care of their husbands as well as their children, and their own well-being. We as women need to go into motherhood with open eyes, knowing life is fluid, things may change, and we must be as prepared as possible for all the challenges having a family may bring.

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 8:51 am

As an INFP, parenting is exhausting for me. I get tremendously anxious about each parenting decision, worry about everything, and especially freak out when my kids are sick. I find the noise and mess and neediness very overwhelming and consuming. Pregnancy and labor are another source of anxiety, and lack of sleep makes me a mess (but leaving babies to cry makes me anxious too). Also babies/toddlers are just intellectually mind-numbing, though past the age of 3 I find I enjoy my kids more and more each year.

Miriam Adahan says that for an NF, each child feels like 4 or 5, which puts me at 8 or 10 kids already.

If I'd had the choice, I probably wouldn't have had kids. Now that I have 2, I'm ready to stop. I'm comfortable with that from a halachic perspective (we have both genders) but DH desperately wants more and really is incredibly helpful. So I'm very torn now.

simba

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 9:38 am

The winds of feminism are out! I have hard time seperating what I feel and what I beleive is the Torah way. I definitely agree that someone who does not want to have children should not because of societal pressure.

If I was not frum I would not likely get married or have a family until much later in my life. I am career minded, don't appreciate monogamy and find child bearing to take up a lot of my personal space.

Now, as a married women and mother I can't think of a more fulfilling life. That doesn't mean it is not challenging for me because it is fulfilling but at least I can appreciate it.

Today's atmosphere is increasingly self-absorbed. This decreases everyone's tolerance for discomfort and increases their selfishness. It is the reality of the world at large and the frum world is also affected by it. As frum Jews we do many things that are highly inconvenient and uncomfortable, not because we were born to naturally want to keep Shabbos or dig into your innards for a week to make sure it's clean!

The continuation of yiddishkeit is only as strong as the women willing to perpetuate it. Yes, it's the mans mitzvah but, he can't do it alone. So yes, I believe girls should be taught the beauty in raising a Jewish family yet supported through their challenges and fears in connection to it. And if someone decides that it is not for them it is no ones business to push it on them, its to great a responsibility.

chocolatecake

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 10:40 am

I was recently in an elevator with my three kids. There was an older couple there and the woman was looking at my kids with sad eyes. She tells me "Wow, three kids, good for you. I only had one - biggest mistake I ever made!" Obviously you should not have kids for the sole reason to take care of you when you are older but my sister works in a nursing home and she always says that the patients who have kids are much happier and usually better off physically and mentally than the patients who don't.
All that being said I personally have a college degree and would like my daughters to get one as well. No one is saying you must have ten kids. However not getting married or not having kids at all because you want to pursue a career or you don't like kids is a decision that I can't imagine one won't regret once its too late....

Laiya

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 11:25 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

FF, the bolded jumped out at me. Your dd doesn't have the nurturing gene, but she can see herself fostering kids??

To me, being a foster parent takes an incredible and rare amount of innate nurturing!

amother

Teal

Fri, Feb 02 2018, 8:51 am

As a teenager I never even thought about marriage, let alone children. Funnily enough, I got married at nineteen (not shidduch date), and had a baby at twenty. When people ask me about that time in my life, I don’t really know what to say. I feel like I was sleepwalking. Nine years later I have three kids who are very energetic and take a lot of work. I love them, but I was never the maternal type and I find a lot of parts of mothering to be hard. This is exacerbated by the fact that I have all boys, so I find their games and interests to be very different from mine. I would love to play dolls or dress up or color. But my boys don’t really want to do that. They want to play with swords and ball etc. so I try my best. But it isn’t easy. So I have found that the best way for us all to have fun is to take them out a lot. I love going on trips and that is something that comes easily to me. Discovering new places is exciting and fun. So whenever I can we go out. I just find it so much easier to enjoy being with them when we aren’t home. I’m lucky that I have the money and the strength to do those things and it really creates a lot of bonding opportunities. I hope that they will have good memories of their fun going out Mom, and not focus too much on their grumpy at home Mom LOL