Hitting an 18 month old child is wrong

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Chayalle

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 2:02 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with every word and you voiced my beliefs.
IF you are on the level to hit a child once in a blue moon for the sake of chinnuch then ok but unfortunately most of us aren’t and therefor we need to find other ways to be mechanech our children.

I have a family member who strongly believes in hitting to “put children in place”. Her kids get hit as young as 1 year old on a daily basis. It’s abuse plain and simple cloaked in “chinnuch”! I cry for these kids who incidentally are still so young yet are from the most misbehaved and chutzpahdig kids I know.

Someone needs to come and put her in her place.

Hitting a baby is abuse. The baby is not old enough to make a connection between the action and the potch. All they know is that they are being hurt, by the very people who are supposed to love and protect them.

I'm not into hitting - I think of it as a poor parenting skill. If you are hitting your child, you need to get a parenting education. There are much better methods out there.

R' Salamon from Lakewood-BMG says that when you hit your child, it is unlikely that your child is feeling remorse. Rather, your child is thinking that they wish they were the bigger person, because then they would hit you. Most of the time, hitting does not accomplish much.

I try not to be judgemental of other peoples' parenting, because not all children are the same. Some children are harder than others, and with some children, it's harder to tap into those parenting skills when the child is testing the parent. But all I can say is that I've been there with a child who is more challenging, and B"H I got alot of support from a great parenting mentor, so that I could give her better parenting than a "quick-fix potch" that does more harm than good (especially with a more sensitive child like mine!) B"H B"H we are seeing, all of a sudden, such tremendous growth now that some maturity is kicking in. I'm so grateful that our relationship hasn't been damaged by hitting.

If hitting is your go-to discipline method, it's for sure not the right one. And if it's occasional - think twice, is it really suitable for the child? Is there anything better out there?

As to the OP - hitting an 18 month old makes me have serious questions for Hashem. Why is it that these people have kids, when there are so many of us who want them so badly and can't?

mommy201

Mon, Mar 05 2018, 3:01 pm

I agree with this 100%! I believe even a child up to 3 & 4 years old, their brains are not mature enough to control their impulses. 18 months is definitely too young!
I don't believe hitting is ever effective in teaching our children what they did wrong. It may teach them to be mad or fearful of us and they may or may not do the "bad" thing they did, again. However, it will never teach them that it was the wrong thing to do and help them feel remorse for the actions. It will probably teach them the Mommy's love is conditional. When I do things right, I get loved, when I do something "bad" I get punished/hit. They dont see the love in that, even though we do always love our children.
I learned some amazing tools and perspective from taking an amazing parenting course. If anyone is interested please pm.

imasoftov

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 5:04 am

amother wrote:

Why not? Before I hit my child I tell them in a nice loving way that I must hit you becuse you did x y z. That am really sorry but I must do this in order to teach you, it hurts me to. End of story it teaches them a lesson for life.

Never hit a child out of anger.

When you say "must" you are lying.

imasoftov

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 5:07 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

That's not true. We don't have to show love 24 hours a day, and punishment (no matter what form) is obviously not going to be seen as love, no matter how, when, and where.

But I do agree that children today (and in truth, even in the past) need a lot of love, but I don't think both are mutually exclusive - what I mean is, you can potch now and then, and you can still love your children, and they can feel that you love them. This is not a contradiction.

תנו רבנן לעולם תהא שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת לא כאלישע שדחפו לגחזי בשתי ידיו ולא כיהושע בן פרחיה שדחפו [להנוצרי] (לאחד מתלמידיו) בשתי ידיו

I found this quote - I always thought this was mishlei, but a google search turned up this gemarah - we need to use both love and punishment, but the love should be stronger.

This source is not about childraising, also not about corporal punishment.

Chayalle

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 10:39 am

imasoftov wrote:

This source is not about childraising, also not about corporal punishment.

I have definitely heard this source quoted in connection to childraising. I agree it's not about corporal punishment.

Basically, in chinuch, the balance is supposed to tip more to the side of love - with your dominant hand (usually the right), bring the child close. But we can't forget that boundaries and (positive - my addition) discipline are also needed, and that is the left hand, that must also be employed.

Yocheved_G

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 1:04 pm

For those who ‘potch’ for safety infractions: Does the child learn immediately to never do that again? Are you able to rest assured the child will not repeat the action because that particular discipline was so effective?

And to those who follow up with explaining & kisses & hugs: How do you know what effectively changed the behavior - perhaps it was the words & affection. How can you differentiate that it was specifically the ‘potch’ that ingrained the desired lesson?

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 1:50 pm

Teomima wrote:

My children are the most precious thing I have. I worked very hard to make them. I spent nine months growing them. I've kissed and caressed and cared for them. How could I ever imagine physically hurting them???

My kids are my life. They are my ultimate joy and nachas BH. But I am human. So when the three year old insists on helping set the table and then grabs the glass off the counter and drops it on the way to the table, where it shatters into millions of dangerous tiny shards of needle sharp pieces, my immediate thought is that she and I are barefoot and the baby is crawling nearby. So I shriek that everyone needs to freeze and I grab the baby and barefoot 3 year old and gingerly back away from the scene to put on shoes and get the broom. If I yell at the three year old during this scenario that I told her not to help set the table and why doesn't she just listen to mommy, that doesn't mean she isn't cherished and treasured. It means I am human. I am overwhelmed in the moment. And she is human. She doesn't always listen to mommy. Your beautiful emotional soliloquy doesn't really belong on this thread.

InnerMe

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 2:02 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with your post, namely that parents are human and that because you love your children you may come to use certain discipline methods.. except your last line. Teomima was expressing her feelings on this subject, and you are free to express yours. But why the need to mock her opinion?

amother

Orchid

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 2:04 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not the poster you were responding to, but posters on this thread are arguing that hitting is appropriate chinuch *l'chatchila*.

Your scenario is different. We all say things we regret occasionally as parents, but that's not what's being discussed.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 2:09 pm

Yikes, why would you use the word mock? That's very harsh! I think she was using guilt, declaring a mother who responds forcefully to a child as not loving them as much as she loves hers. I was refuting. I don't think her opinion is realistic and mothers feel enough guilt with no need to start doubting their love for their kids because they raise their voice the second time the kid ignores them, not the third.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 2:12 pm

amother wrote:

She went way beyond hitting. She said that since she never raised her voice, her kids respond when she does. And she never raises her voice because she loves them so much. I think parents who yell (too much) love their kids as much as she loves hers.

amother

Blue

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

I agree. You're human and we all are and the soliloquy struck me as a little over the top melodramatic too. There's something missing from your story though. You yelled at your three year old. I probably would have yelled louder than you. But you didn't hit your three your old for breaking the glass. I hope I'd never do that either. That would be abuse.
There might be times where hitting might not be the wrong thing. But an eighteen month old? Never. A three year old who disobeyed his mother and picked up a glass and broke it? Just No.
If you're that overwhelmed, get help immediately.

amother

Black

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 5:04 pm

Please don't hit your children.

InnerMe

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 5:13 pm

amother wrote:

Perhaps mock is too harsh. I found Teomima's sentiments beautiful and real and an expression of what she really feels inside and I was disappointed when you dismissed it with "beautiful emotional soliloquy does not belong here... " In any event, I understand you as well, that it could come across as "I love my child more..." Etc.

amother

Gray

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 5:42 pm

amother wrote:

She specifically wrote why would I physically hurt them. She didn’t mention yelling.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Mar 06 2018, 6:19 pm

amother wrote:

She's expressing a sentiment, which I wonder about myself. Even if it's possible to hit for discipline without being abusive....how can you bring yourself to do that to your sweet children? Not out of anger, but as an intentional shitah?

When there are equally effective ways to discipline that won't hurt or shame them?

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Mar 07 2018, 3:04 am

I strongly recommend R' Shlomo Wolbe, tz"ls amazing sefer "Zeriah U'Binyan B'Chinuch". There is an English translation, too (Planting and Building: Raising A Jewish Child put out by Feldheim). He discusses extensively how to understand the pasuk of "chosech shivto sonai b'no" and I can't really do it justice in this post, but suffice it to say he does NOT hold that the "shevet" means actual hitting.

But I would like to quote what he holds l'maasah. He quotes the gemarah in kiddushin that discuss if a father hits his son above a certain age he is actually violating the issur of "lifnai iver" because it will likely cause his son to rebel and even hit him back. He says that in today's society where children are weaker and society is more rebellious, this is true for even very young children -- it will lead to them wanting to rebel. So even hitting a very young child (above the age of3) will be assur because of lifnai iver.

Then he talks about the idea of disciplining harshly, and I'll quote some of what he writes directly, even though it will make this post long.

Quote:

If someone tries to crush a child by spanking him, he can hurt the child and his relationship with the child, and when the child grows up he might close himself off from his parents. Then it will be impossible to build a trusting relationship, an open relationship. . .Screaming at a child is as bad as, or perhaps worse than spanking a child.. . .Yes, it is very difficult to control oneself in such a situation. Nonetheless, screaming damages. . .

In the book Minchas Shmuel, the author quotes his rebbe, Rav Chaim Volozhiner saying "Today, harsh language won't be accepted." If we express ourselves harshly, people will not listen to us. People can only hear soft, nice words. "And someone whose nature is not to speak softly and who angers quickly . . .is exempt from the mitzvah of tochacha." . .

The mitzvah of chinuch is anchored in the mitzvah of tochacha. It seems that an angry person is exempt from chinuch. However, one cannot except oneself from chinuch, since ultimately a father remains a father. Therefore, we have no option but to control ourselves. More than 140 years ago Rav Chaim ruled that one should not use harsh language. How much more so today we must avoid harshness, especially with children. Harsh words and actions accomplish nothing. The opposite is true: Harsh words and actions damage. . . What should be done when the child doesn't listen? We must express our demand and re-express it until the child listens. This is the wisdom of chinuch: to know how to speak and when to speak.

He also quotes Rav Eliyahu Lopian, zt"l who raised eleven children many of whom became great roshei yeshiva, who said that when he got older he regretted every spanking he ever gave to his children when they were small, even though it was rare. He would tell his talmidim that with children you can only be mechanech in a pleasant way.

Teomima

Wed, Mar 07 2018, 7:44 am

amother wrote:

The bit you're responding to is me explaining why I don't HIT my children. I very clearly say, in a part of my comment that you did not bother to quote, that, when warranted, I did raise my voice at them. Disagree with me all you like, but don't edit my comments, respond to the incorrect part, then act like what I said was faulty in the first place.

Teomima

Wed, Mar 07 2018, 7:47 am

amother wrote:

Again, I actually didn't say that at all. Please go back and read my FULL comment.

oliveoil

Wed, Mar 07 2018, 8:51 am

I've never understood why hitting NOT out of anger is some big ideal. If anything, it seems a lot worse to me to make that decision and follow through when you are calm, collected and rational.

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