Hearbroken and terrified by meeting with psych today, need c

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 8:29 pm

amother wrote:

True, OP didn't write that. But she also didn't explain the psychologist's justification or reasoning for his advice, so it would seem there are some gaps here as to what we, readers of this thread, understand about the situation.

If this is, in fact, a very severe situation and the expert's advice was right on target, it could be terribly harmful for all of the imamothers to be telling the OP to ignore the said advice.

Again, as we really don't know all the facts, but OP is not comfortable with the advice given by the professional, it would seem to me that her best course of action is to find someone whom she feels more comfortable with to advise her.

OP, I hope my posts don't come across as harsh. I can only imagine how difficult and painful this situation is. I"h you should find the right shaliach for you and your son, and he will outgrow this phase and be a source of much nachas.

Regardless of the therapist's reasoning, it behooves us to exercise some independent critical thinking :
If the child is dangerous, such as brandishing a knife, there's always the ambulance route. The fact that therapist is recommending police seems to indicate the purpose for calling is to scare the child. And I think this is the part some of us find reprehensible. Kid needs emergency help? Why not call paramedics? Why law enforcement?
You get my drift?

amother

Mustard

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 8:53 pm

At least in my State
If you call the police they will Baker Act him
Meaning, they will take him to the psych ward for a minimum (not sure how long) stay.
Just be aware of this before you call

SixOfWands

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 9:11 pm

amother wrote:

An ambulance attendant or paramedic isn't going to deal with someone brandishing a knife. They'll take him away after the police are done, if necessary.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 9:13 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

An ambulance attendant or paramedic isn't going to deal with someone brandishing a knife. They'll take him away after the police are done, if necessary.

This. A situation of active violence calls for police, not EMTs.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 9:15 pm

amother wrote:

At least in my State
If you call the police they will Baker Act him
Meaning, they will take him to the psych ward for a minimum (not sure how long) stay.
Just be aware of this before you call

Baker Act is a FL law.

Afaik, the purpose of the Baker Act is to provide psychiatric care to someone even against their wishes.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 9:24 pm

OP I'm wishing you loads of hatzlacha hashem should help you find the right hadracha. That being said please don't call police on your son I think the damage can be irreversible. Even though the Dr. Seemed to totally get you and understand you, nevertheless, it doesn't mean that he has the right approach. not everyone that gets you has the right solution to the problem. Please seek more advice and maybe from someone thats also in chinuch. Relief might also be able to help you.
A mother has to use her instincts at times. If you're not comfortable with this approach don't do it. Believe me I've learned the hard way. And now I make sure I'm hundred percent or maybe almost one hundred percent comfortable before I act apon things that I'm suggested. Good luck and may Hashem guide you in the right direction!

SixOfWands

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 9:33 pm

amother wrote:

Baker Act is a FL law.

Afaik, the purpose of the Baker Act is to provide psychiatric care to someone even against their wishes.

Most states probably have something similar.

But the point -- that I made, and that others have made better than me -- is that the police will be required to take certain actions, which may involve involuntary commitment, and may involve juvenile courts.

What for?

If the child cannot control himself, then the threat of police involvement isn't going to make him do so. So wouldn't it be better for the parent, with professionals who are familiar with the child, to make the decision as to these matters, without state involvement.

OTOH, if the child is a threat to others at any time, police involvement may be necessary.

sneakermom

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 10:28 pm

Maybe I’m old fashioned but I never surrender my kids to anybody.

Calling the police is surrendering your kid to them. You don’t have any idea what they might decide to do. And it will be outside of your control.

That’s so scary! For you and your kid!

Your child deserves your protection. You need to protect him from armed police that will march in and take over.

I never understood public schools that arrest young kids for fighting. Into handcuffs, marched across the school, bend their head into the police car, to the precinct to face charges!

Of course these kids end up in jail. They’ve been treated like criminals from a young age.

I am sure your sons behavior worries and scares you. But there’s gotta be a smarter way to give him the containment and boundaries he needs.

He’s ten. Not twenty or thirty.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 10:35 pm

OP coming back to update a little (obviously not entirely, I'm trying to maintain some degree of privacy). . .

I don't think it's PANDAS or Lyme (although I will confuse you all by mentioning that he was tested with positive results and treated for Lyme several years ago due to other-physical-symptoms that all resolved with the course of antibiotics).

This is not sudden. It's been going on forever, I did read the Explosive Child years ago and did not find it to be helpful other than to make me realize that something was really wrong here (because I pretty much did everything suggested and it didn't make an ounce of a difference).

We just started working with this psychologist and psychiatrist (they're a team) and they haven't yet decided on a firm diagnosis (ie anxiety or depression or bipolar or add or something else or. . .a mixture of some of them) but agree there is "something" there and started him on medication at the beginning of the school year. The difference it made in him is HUGE. He had this setback over Pesach (and the fact that he had it altogether is also upsetting to me because I guess I fooled myself into thinking we'd "solved" all his problems with the medication) where he's been in a funk, losing it (to various degrees) over nothing particularly meaningful (that we could tell). . .

I'm mentioning again that outside the family, his issues are not really evident. So the psychologist himself is just going by what we're saying, perhaps we described it worse than it was. . . DS appears to be very shy and well behaved to anyone he's not comfortable with (which is everyone aside from immediate family members).

Anyhow. . . it took us forever (multiple therapists before this who were really ineffectual) to reach this team and I am very impressed by both. We put into place the plan he came up with us yesterday as soon as we got home and. . . the results were great. So I am very happy with this dr and am not planning on going to additional people and spending hours and energy and money trying to explain his issues AGAIN to get a second opinion when, with the exception of this one detail, I am very happy with this dr.

When DS loses it, he can be violent in the sense that he will break things (by slamming them to hard or knocking them over) but he has never hurt any one. He did threaten to once (ie picked up a book to throw at a younger sibling), didn't follow through but. . . it was scary. It's scary every time he loses it, even though he's never really "done" anything (hasn't really even ended up breaking much if anything that I can remember but that's only because he's been "lucky" so far). It's scary because he is out of control and I worry about what he can end up doing (especially as he gets older). Again, this happens about once a year (that it's scary and then he could have more minor-and thus not "scary"-incidents much more than once a year).

So. . . that's what I was describing to the psychologist and we were asking what to do in that situation (it hadn't happened in about 18 months prior to now) and he gave a lot of great advice and then also mentioned the police thing. DH asked if he could just restrain him himself (I actually probably couldn't at this point already) and the dr said no because one of you could get hurt while doing so and if DS gets hurt I have to report you for child abuse (?!!?) The whole thing made no sense and was really disturbing which was why I ended up posting on here.

I think what makes the most sense for me at this point is to discuss further with the dr (perhaps DH and I misunderstood something? Or the dr did?

I definitely have no intention of calling the police though, thanks for all your support!

anonymrs

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 10:47 pm

OP, you sound like a very devoted mother who is thinking things through while dealing with a very challenging situation.

I urge you to contact ILADS (www.ilads.org) and get a referral to a LLMD (Lyme doctor). You can also try the Jewish organizations, Chai for Lyme and Yesh Tickva. If your son has had a positive Lyme test in the past and is continuing to display neuro symptoms, that is likely still Lyme or coinfections residing in his body and attacking his brain, causing these behaviors.

Even if your child was treated in the past, it may have been enough to kill the active infection, but it can remain hidden in the body for years, or even a lifetime; rearing its ugly head in the most frightening of ways. Please, don't neglect to pursue this avenue while you continue to follow the advice of the team that you're currently working with. Your son deserves not to have to suffer forever.

Click the links for more info and get in touch with them:

ILADS

Chai for Lyme

Yesh Tickva: 347.389.LYME (5963)

amother

Lavender

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 10:54 pm

anonymrs wrote:

His behaviors predate his positive Lyme results by many years.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:00 pm

amother wrote:

His behaviors predate his positive Lyme results by many years.

I second everything anonymrs said. The Lyme could have been dormant in his body for many years causing only neurological symptoms before it was actually found and treated. In the Lyme community, a very common infection that goes together with Lyme called bartonella is well-known to cause rages. I know it sounds so far-fetched, I used to be a disbeliever too, until I saw with my own eyes how several people I know well whose kids exhibited rage weren't able to fully get rid of it until they treated for pandas and neuro-lyme and other infections that come along with it.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:09 pm

Our son sounds just like yours. Even the part of him having a good year this year until a few weeks ago...
When he was younger and would hurt a sibling, break things etc we would threaten that we would call the police and sometimes pretend that we were on the phone with them. It worked and he got scared and would stop the behavior. At this point I don’t even know what would help my son anymore.. he certainly wouldn’t believe us now that he’s 12 that we would call the police. Although it might make sense to some I wouldn’t want him put in a psychiatric hospital or in foster care. I wouldn’t recommend it unless the child cannot control himself amongst strangers as he could hurt them. Yes, he is disrupting our household and hurting siblings sometimes ( he comes to me with a raised hand but doesn’t actually hit me) I Daven we should figure out how to raise him but I don’t think taking him out of the home would be productive.

amother

Mauve

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:26 pm

I just want to put out there that many people suffer a setback in emotional health over Yom Tov, and especially Pesach, so don't lose heart.

DH and I had major issues over Pesach. We went to our Rav/SB counselor who helped the situation a lot, and he also told us that so many people have drama and issues over Pesach. It's true you have to deal with it, but im yirtzeh Hashem getting back into a regular routine helps a tremendous amount. I'm just saying, don't judge him by Pesach. He could have had a temporary setback but still be improving.

crust

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:30 pm

Op is it possible that they told it to you in order to empower you and remind you of your strength?

Sometimes in situations like these, parents need empowerment to get back into thier positions as parents more than they need validation that they are struggling with a challenging child.

Maybe this team is trying to accomplish that?

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:46 pm

I can't pm u, op, b/c ur anon...but please can u tell me if the psych ur seeing has initials y.g.? I dont want to see

We recently went to him with very high recommendations and was also impressed with his understanding of our situation but then he gave us advice that we were disturbed by as well and after talking to others (professionals and daas Torah) we did not go through with it. It would've been traumatic for our younger than 10 year old son.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:52 pm

I cannot for the life of me understand why this is considered so severe if the kid is TEN and it's happening once a year.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:53 pm

I recently took Reb, Tzivi Tukshinsky's (Grama) class
Y'sod hadom. It was amazing. She presented very difficult children that were helped, you might benefit from her class. I don't know where you live but in elul she's going to be in N.Y. again.

amother

Lavender

Mon, Apr 16 2018, 11:55 pm

amother wrote:

I can't pm u, op, b/c ur anon...but please can u tell me if the psych ur seeing has initials y.g.? I dont want to see

Initials are not yg.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Apr 17 2018, 12:02 am

amother wrote:

I cannot for the life of me understand why this is considered so severe if the kid is TEN and it's happening once a year.

First of all the tantrums are happening once a year but there are other disturbing (to a lesser degree) situations multiple times during the year (ie the entire household walking on eggshells around said child on a daily basis, more "minor" tantrums that are still way out of proportion to whatever it is that's happened...)

Also... is it really so normal to worry about your possessions and other children's physical safety because of your out of control child even if it's not a frequently occurring event? I have a number of other children, and obviously all children are different but you will have to trust me on this, this particular DS's behavior is... concerning (most of all because of the evident pain that he is, not because of what it is doing to me).