My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:29 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

None of my boys liked tanach. They all like gemarah better. They thought tanach was boring Sad

But necessary. My sons filled the Tanach gaps in on their own.

naturalmom5

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:32 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

And he'll get a PhD in who knows what but go through life with an unsophisticated level of Torah learning and a chip on his shoulder.
Gemara may not be for him but he hasn't had the opportunities he needs to make that decision fully.

Absolutely...I agree 10000%.. Definitely look into Yeshiva Har Etzion.. My son said it was the Harvard of yeshivas

dancingqueen

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:34 pm

Op your ds sounds like my dh and a lot of men I know actually. A lot of brilliant math/science people that I know just don’t find gemara that intellectually stimulating and/or just prefer other subjects.

That’s why I kind of wonder how all the boys/men in the yeshivish and chassidish world all manage to learn gemara all day every day.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:49 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Op here. This is exactly what I am wondering. Could it be that a brilliant normal guy can find Gemara boring and not stimulating. If he is not distracted by other stuff.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:52 pm

rowo wrote:

Is there an older guy or kollel yungerman that he respects?
Are there subjects within Torah that he is interested in?

Torah is so vast, personally I would try to arrange for him to learn with someone outside of school (or during school hours, if he's not in class anyway), but find topics that do interest him. And for the time being drop the focus of Gemara, let him build up a love and interest in Torah .

Op here. I was thinking that if something would make him interested in tora learning it would be Gemara. Because he is very analytical ans into science and also likes philosophy and literature on to of it and Gemara supposed to be the only challenging part of tora learning.

amother

Beige

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:53 pm

amother wrote:

Op here. This is exactly what I am wondering. Could it be that a brilliant normal guy can find Gemara boring and not stimulating. If he is not distracted by other stuff.

It's very odd that he can ace his tests without sitting in class. If the shiur was anything beyond basic level, this would not be possible. So I don't think you can decide that he isn't connecting without giving him an opportunity to connect differently than he has been until now.

Also, there is such an endless amount of material to learn. Just because he isn't connecting with the sugya they're currently learning, doesn't mean he wouldn't be blown away if he could learn a different sugya (properly).

amother

Beige

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:56 pm

amother wrote:

Just gonna nitpick a little and point out that while gemara is probably the most intellectually stimulating learning possible, it isn't the only challenging part of Torah learning.

While your son may be a genius, there have been Torah giants whose genius surpasses his. And they have found depth and beauty in learning all of the Torah.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:08 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

They're obviously learning at a higher level than your dh was exposed to Confused

amother

Oak

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:08 pm

OP, for keeping your son’s love of Torah alive even while he’s not interested in gemarah, I suggest buying him one of Aviva Zornberg’s parsha books. She holds a PhD from Cambridge in English Literature and blends Torah, psychology, and literature together in a way that is truly astounding. I am also gifted and find reading her works challenging, inspiring and extremely rewarding - your son deserves at least to be introduced to her approach.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:10 pm

amother wrote:

Not odd at all. A highly intelligent young man can teach himself in an hour what the whole class (a class that includes uninterested, unmotivated young men) can take a whole week to learn.

Op, try to find him someone or something that will expose him to a higher level of learning. At least give it a chance!

rowo

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:17 pm

amother wrote:

Has he learnt any chassidus?

Purple2

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:25 pm

Op, another question is where are your sons chavrusahs? During Seder the boys learn with a chavrusah. I’m sure there are other very bright boys (unless this is a lower level Yeshiva).
Most of the boys challenge each other in learning.
People are suggesting different “books” and speakers. If he really is that bright, he should be doing what many of the boys are learning on their own time, like on Shabbos. Sefarim like pachad Yitzchok, nefesh hachaim, Shaagas Aretha and michtov mielihayu. Many of the boys learn them in their “spare” time.
These seforim are just a few of the seforim boys his age would be learning on their own. They are all written by brilliant men and are thought provoking.
If he’s not on the level to learn those seforim, it just might be that his Yeshiva is really not on par with the “good” yeshivos.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

Op here I told ds that awhile ago and he answered that he learned Gemara and he knows that it is not interesting. It is just repeating and going over discussions that are not interesting.

nylon

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 12:06 am

I have to agree that your son's school is to blame. Now--can I guarantee that he would like Gemara elsewhere, no. But there is something in there for every level of learning, and he's not getting it. Worse it's turning him off to Torah learning, AND he's risking becoming overly confident of his abilities. He may be a genius but everyone hits a wall at something.

Certain masechtot are more popular because they are considered good for learning skills, but the content isn't necessarily so interesting--the boys don't want to hear that much about Reuven and Shimon and the ox.

He's also encountering a double whammy: not only is he bored by Gemara as its being taught, it's such a dominant subject for high school boys. How much time does he get on other subjects?

I agree that Gush would offer a very different style of program for him, but it would need to be his choice.

DrMom

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 12:08 am

amother wrote:

Op here I told ds that awhile ago and he answered that he learned Gemara and he knows that it is not interesting. It is just repeating and going over discussions that are not interesting.

Do his teachers of other subjects go out of their way to challenge him? It sounds as if his gemara teacher certainly does not. Perhaps you can ask him for other learning resources to make sure he is not bored.

OTOH, I think it is legitimate for someone to simply not enjoy gemara! Just as not every intellectually gifted non-Jew finds law exciting, so too every intellectually gifted Jew need not find gemara to be exciting.

No point trying to force this, esp when he clearly has so many talents in different areas. Encourage him to use his gifts toward a pursuit he finds inspiring.

dancingqueen

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 12:23 am

amother wrote:

Op here. This is exactly what I am wondering. Could it be that a brilliant normal guy can find Gemara boring and not stimulating. If he is not distracted by other stuff.

IME yes. Is it so shocking that different people connect more to some subjects than others?

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:03 am

DrMom wrote:

Op here
I understood everyone who is very smart and analytical and have the right teacher will like Gemara. It’s really confusing

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:05 am

nylon wrote:

Op here
What different style of program will Gush offer?

momnaturally

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:14 am

Look in to Toras Moshe in Yerushalayim.
aka TOMO I think the Rosh Yeshivas name is Rabbi Meiselman. He is supposed to be brilliant.
It sounds like based on your sons background it would be a good fit.
They have a high level and cater to the bright boys but have much more oot boys as opposed to ny/NJ boys. Boys go there after 12th grade.
Maybe he can go for the summer to Israel and try it out. If he likes it he can stay otherwise he can come back for September.