My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

amother

Brown

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:14 am

amother wrote:

Op here
What different style of program will Gush offer?

The learning is highly conceptual. You don't just learn what's on the page, you extrapolate to get to the abstract framework. There are yeshivish places that work this way too, but perhaps less rigorously.

In addition to having this learning style, there's also an appreciation for broader learning. Boys in the overseas program are offered chugim in Tanach and machshevet.

Still, you're in a yeshiva framework. If he can't learn gemara for hours at a time, this isn't the right place for him.

ETA: I'm not sure that it's helpful to be discussing what post high school program would be best for him. I think the issue is how to give him an enjoyable learning experience now.

DrMom

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:24 am

amother wrote:

Op here
I understood everyone who is very smart and analytical and have the right teacher will like Gemara. It’s really confusing

That is ridiculous.

If someone said the same thing about any other topic (medicine, physics, woodworking, mathematics, sculpture, etc.) you would recognize it as ridiculous. Use common sense. Not all people are alike, and that also applies to Orthodox Jews.

It is a shame that you look at your bright, talented, motivated son as somehow defective because he doesn't like this particular topic.

Great way to drive someone OTD.

Iymnok

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 2:05 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Quantum physics? I thought philosophy. There's Dr. Goldfinger from Baltimore who's done some high level science.

You’re right, he taught philosophy, the set of shiurim I heard were on quantum physics. Totally over my head.

Iymnok

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 2:25 am

It is common for boys (or men) to bounce around yeshivas until they find the way of learning that suits them. There are so many ways to learn that it is virtually impossible for someone to just "not like" it.
Right now Dh is learning issurv'heter. They are learning the pertinent Gemaras, all the mefarshim, the rishonim that have codified the halacha, the commentaries on those, all the way down to how it’s applied today.
But in each step they have to figure out how he got there. Often it means learning the whole thing over from a different angle. Each of these great men had a different style. You have to get into their heads and understand how each one learned and what he had available to him at the time. (Imagine learning without Rashi)
Dh has a friend who is a genius. He would learn (in highschool) the whole Gemara with only the Rashba. Then only the Ritva.

Brisk may take him, even at this age, but he may need to catch up. It sounds like his Gemara skills are very lacking due to non-exposure. Brisk learns Kodshim. The style is different than other places. The Rosh Yeshiva od Toras Moshe is a Talmud of Brisk and is very intellectual. He would be able to have conversations with your son on his preferred topics.

There are many intellectual talmidei chachomim who have learned science, philosophy and other secular subjects.
Have you heard of Rav Belsky TZ"L?

DrMom

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:00 am

I think your son's yeshiva really blew it.

It sounds as if the teachers in secular subjects go out of their way to challenge your son, but the rebbe who teaches gemara is lazy and is happy to pace his lessons according to the abilities of the slowest students in the class. So one kid is way ahead and finds it boring? Let him skip class so he won't complain. That's a really pathetic solution.

The question is: what can you do about it now? It would be nice if the rebbe would be a little proactive about giving your son more challenging material, but since he clearly is not, why don't you suggest it to him? Perhaps there is someone your DS can learn with (via Skype?) at a higher level. Maybe he can do that during the regular gemara class. That way you don't have to ship him off to some far-away boarding school before he finishes high school (quite a drastic move at this stage, and it might have downsides).

That being said, even if you go out of your way to find a way to challenge him, it is still entirely possible that this subject simply does not appeal to him. You need to be willing to accept that.

amother

Gray

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:10 am

DrMom wrote:

Do his teachers of other subjects go out of their way to challenge him? It sounds as if his gemara teacher certainly does not. Perhaps you can ask him for other learning resources to make sure he is not bored.

OTOH, I think it is legitimate for someone to simply not enjoy gemara! Just as not every intellectually gifted non-Jew finds law exciting, so too every intellectually gifted Jew need not find gemara to be exciting.

No point trying to force this, esp when he clearly has so many talents in different areas. Encourage him to use his gifts toward a pursuit he finds inspiring.

I think there's a difference between saying you don't find it exciting, and you find it entirely boring. Not every intellectually gifted person will connect with law, science and math, but I would expect them to have an appreciation for it--IF they've been properly exposed to it and taught the underlying framework.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:21 am

amother wrote:

He's 17. An adult? Maybe. I still think biology is the most boring science I have ever encountered and not because it's hard (I think higher level biology is rather difficult and it's amazing to me that people can figure out how to heal the human body, but I would never want to spend my life devoted to studying it).

amother

Gray

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:35 am

saw50st8 wrote:

So to me it sounded like the OP is saying the equivalent of, Her brilliant son finds all science boring. All biology, physics, chemistry, etc.

You would expect a brilliant person to have, at the least, a certain degree of intellectual appreciation for a subject, even if he doesn't want to spend hours every day studying it.

amother

Mauve

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:47 am

Just to clarify, your son is able to sleep during class and take breaks, and he is able to understand gemara, rashi, tosvos, rishonim, achronim, and other mefarshim? If his class is learning less than that, have him learn the sugya deeper. Since he is so advanced, he should be able to learn the pirushim in these sefarim on his own. Even big talmidai chachamim can spend hours a day working to get and understand pshat.

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

Acc. to dh, gemara learning can be comparable to law. It's crafting legal arguments within certain foundational principles of logic.

Want to add, this explanation speaks to me as an attorney. I find it hard to imagine someone who has that whole foundation, is brilliant, yet finds *all* of law boring. Sure, there are many CLE classes, and briefs and opinions, I wouldn't be interested in spending ten seconds perusing.

But to say that ALL of law is boring? The reconciliation of two opposing ideas should be, at the least, intellectually stimulating, as Camp says below.

And I find it incomprehensible that not everyone enjoys math and physics. Nonetheless, not living inside my head refusing to take notice of reality, I would not force anyone, child or adult, to spend their entire day (or even most of it) studying any one subject that did not appeal to them.

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:58 am

octopus wrote:

Just wanted to add: We all have to do things that we think are boring. That's part of life. You can't make him love learning, but he can acknowledge his responsibility right now is school, and he has to either attend rebbie class or attend an equivalent. No freebies.

The problem here is that in most yeshivas, that's most of the day. So it's not like someone in a school with varied subjects who is bored by one of them. Perhaps not Leonard Cohen's twenty years of boredom, but time passes slower for teens than adults.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 9:06 am

Holy delayed reaction, OP. What's your son's plan for after 12th grade? An Ivy? How important is his Yiddishkeit to him? How strong is he? What kind of ongoing Torah learning - not necessarily Gemara - will he engage in? Does he value the concept of k'vius itim?

My point is, who will he be in 4 years? Who does HE want to be?

There's a lot to discuss.

And yes, I appreciate different strokes for different folks but he is way too young, and too under-exposed, to write off such an essential part of life as irrelevant to his.

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 9:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Completely agree with this.

amother

Gray

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 9:31 am

imasoftov wrote:

OP did not say that her son doesn't enjoy it. She said the entire subject boring. Had he said he doesn't enjoy it, I would have responded differently.

As to how much of his day should be spent learning it, that's also different question and not what I was responding to.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:44 am

DrMom wrote:

Op here
I might be naive because I’m a bt. I look at Gemara as the ultimate subject for Jewish men. if someone is smart as my son who interested in almost everything from math to science biology physics computers philosophy literature politics history etc. he has vast knowledge and understanding in all of these subjects so I don’t understand why isn’t he interested in learning Gemara. I idolize Gemara learning as fulfilling and inspiring and also intellectually challenging and spiritually uplifting. a necessity for a Jewish man. I support ds in everything he does but I do want him to be exposed to Gemara and hope he will like it. I don’t understand why wouldn’t he like it. I might be wrong.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:47 am

PinkFridge wrote:

At this point he practically is guaranteed a place in an Ivy League university. But I want him to have a connection to tora through learning also.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:54 am

amother wrote:

At this point he practically is guaranteed a place in an Ivy League university. But I want him to have a connection to tora through learning also.

IMO, your impulses are totally on target. I'm just concerned about maintaining Yiddishkeit in college.
Years ago, I remember a discussion in school about why we should go to seminary. (Note: sem wasn't synonymous with Israel. Half my class didn't go to Israel but all but 2 went on to seminary.) Now, whether you agree or not, I think the theme they were trying to push is something worth considering. The major point the teacher or principal, can't remember who, wanted to make was that if we were going on to higher education, which was not discouraged in my school, we had to realize that while our years in BY nourished and fortified us for the next stages, Torah learning was much more sophisticated and varied than what we had so far and seminary would offer that to us, and hopefully stimulate Torah connection - ours, not just facilitating the family's - for life. So you can tell him that you want him to discover depths, and for life, beyond what he's experienced so far.

zigi

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:55 am

there are other parts of the torah to not only gemarah. maybe learn another section of the gemarah that is more interesting, the whole doesn't enjoy it and finds it boring it is rare to enjoy something and find it boring, they basically go together