My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:06 am

I think the problem here is that your son is in the equivalent of 12th grade math when he should be taking advanced college level math courses.

Of course he is bored. My eldest DS is like this. Bored with the read-and-translate and discuss main ideas.

Fortunately before he was bar mitzvah, our Rabbi had a chance to learn with him at his school. He called us to say DS needs advanced learning or else DS would become bored and turned off of learning.

He recommended that DS learn with a man at our shul who is really high level, who doesn’t take students but agreed to meet with DS. (DH is a great learner but not like this guy, he’s a genius).

DS, who is quickly bored, came home so happy from their first meeting. He said “it’s great, he goes just my speed - really fast- and he doesn’t tell me anything twice!” Now they continue to learn together 2-3 times a week.

Someone with a mind like this is able to really see the depth and breadth of Gemara (and other seforim) and draw connections that others just won’t see. Your typical rebbe in a typical class just can’t move at the pace and level of complexity your son needs. Hearing my DS learn with this guy, switching between English and Hebrew, moving so incredibly fast, and pulling so many things together, just amazes me.

I don’t know if you can get him to go to yeshiva at this point, but see if you can find someone like this to learn with him a couple of times a week.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Op here
Wow you understand exactly the problem and explained why it all happened. I was just wondering where and why did it all go wrong. I will try to talk to someone about it. Thanks

naturalmom5

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

Op here
Wow you understand exactly the problem and explained why it all happened. I was just wondering where and why did it all go wrong. I will try to talk to someone about it. Thanks

I really hope I am not insulting you... You lived out of town and didn't stay in touch with the major centers of Jewish learning, at least virtually or online..

Then possibly like many of us , I know I did when I started out for the first few years, until I wised up fast ; you were in awe of the established frum community and assumed they know what they are doing..

When it comes to basket weaving , cheese making, or neuro-surgery, we usually investigate. For some reason, when it comes to chinuch, many BTs have an inferiority complex and thing the self-proclaimed chinuch professionals know everything, until we find out the hard way, that its not all its cracked up to be...

Now, you really need to get a "REAL" expert in Ohr Someach or YU or Yeshiva HarEtzion in the Gush to develop a friendship with your son and whet his curiosity....

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

Op here
Wow you understand exactly the problem and explained why it all happened. I was just wondering where and why did it all go wrong. I will try to talk to someone about it. Thanks

Don't feel bad! DH has always learned with our kids - we knew he was super bright and had a head for torah, but it didn't occur to us to find him "special advanced learning" even before his bar mitzvah. Thankfully, our rabbi really watches out for everyone and made this happen. Schools, yeshivot, will often overlook a child who is doing well and fail to challenge them. They often focus on the kids who need support to keep up.

amother

Peach

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 1:33 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Op here
I’m sure it’s my fault...but in secular schools the teachers and principals are really professionals and look out for your children. It is the topic for another thread to describe the attitude of some of the Rabbis and rebbes. And the reasons are very complex. I wrote before that I am very disappointed and frustrated. I was naive and an outsider and caught out of guard.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 7:08 pm

amother wrote:

OP - I read the whole thread, and Ill say it clearer than the other posts.

Inappropriate viewing online is a major source of not enjoying learning. Also potentially of divorce down the line. You need to deal with that if its the source.

??????

This child hasn't even been exposed to real "hardcore" (sorry it was too easy) Talmud learning. That's the issue. His classes are boring to him.

He may find down the line he doesn't like studying Talmud - that's something else... but he's bored, because he's not engaged.

Miri7

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 9:36 pm

amother wrote:

I don’t think that the other posters were saying this at all, so your post wasn’t saying it “more clearly”.

Last edited by Miri7 on Mon, Apr 23 2018, 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 24 2018, 7:13 am

amother wrote:

Some of the allegations on this thread are beyond ridiculous.

Believe it or not, some people just do not find Gemara interesting, relevant, or stimulating. That may simply be the case here. OR, he may just need a change of environment/teaching approach. We can't know. But to insist the kid must be watching [filth] is just over the top.

I would say over the top, but you have to validate the amother's experiences, sad as they are. She's just trying to help. I think we can put that aside now and get back to our regularly scheduled program.

zgp

Mon, May 07 2018, 10:39 pm

Hi, I am new around here and following this one with interest. As a gifted mother of gifted kids with a degree in gifted education, I would venture to say that you are hitting a very common problem - not as you might think in terms of bored child syndrome (which is also very common) but in terms of how you, as a parent, understand what is going on here. In order for you to help your child, you need to understand what he himself is saying.
It is very easy for a child to say "x is boring" what he is really saying is "my experience of x has been boring". "gemara" is a very broad term. His experience of gemara has been boring. Ok. The study of gemara is made of thousands of individual topics which interconnect. It is multi-faceted. Even the way it is learned varies enormously from one individual to the next. How does your son think? what interests him? what kind of games does he enjoy? what kind of books does he read? what was he doing the last time you saw him with a real smile of enjoyment on his face? There is something in the gemara for everyone. You just have to find it.
At the same time, putting gemara on one side for a minute, finding gemara boring is no reason for labelling all yiddishkeit as boring. You have to be very careful here. Ok, he does not want to learn gemara right now - problem number one. Problem number two - he is finding secular learning the focus in his life. This does not have to be the direct result. Maybe he would enjoy analysing Jewish thought? Make sure that his lack of interest in gemara is not turning him off completely. There are hundreds of sefarim out there which he would enjoy. Again, you just have to find what.
The third issue here is that I imagine he has not yet met someone who can stump him in learning. You have to find him a role model of some sort who he can see knows more than he does. Even if you live out of town, you should be able to find someone. If not in the community try online learning. He needs to find the satisfaction in the meeting of minds of a really good chavrusa. fyi even if someone has been sitting and learning for forty years, if he doesn't have a good chavrusa who can challenge him at his own level, he will find it a struggle to keep going. If your son has never had that experience, it is bound to be hard.