My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:38 pm

It sounds like the yeshiva is not really on board with your son. They are allowing him to skip class without finding out why (which school allows kids to skip class for any reason?), and they are not offering you more - whether it's a chavrusa, advice for a different yeshiva, private learning time with the Rebbe, or whatever.

I really think you should discuss this with someone IRL - someone who is not affiliated with your son's school, and who knows the ins and outs of the boys yeshiva system. Perhaps that person can help you come up with a real life solution. If your goal is to have your son love learning, this is not going to happen with the situation the way you described it - so maybe someone who knows you or your son can help you find a better solution.

I can assure you, that some of the yeshivas we have here in New York and New Jersey are on a very high level indeed, and no-one, not even the smartest boy, will be bored. The problem with having a yeshiva that caters to a community and that accepts anyone, is that the rebbe has to teach at the lowest level, to keep the entire class engaged and so that no-one will be left behind. In in-town communities, there are so many yeshivos that they have become somewhat segregated. I have heard this system criticized vehemently because of the disadvantage it gives the "weaker" students, but at the end of the day, there are yeshivos that definitely cater to extremely bright boys.

The way I understand it (and what I hear from the menfolk in my family) is that the issue is not the learning per se, it's the fact that the others in his class are not on his level. So there will be less give and take on an intellectual level that is challenging enough for him.

IMHO, I'm hearing your question like this - my son is in the University of Tennessee (making up a name) and my cousins who go to Harvard are saying that their classes are more challenging, could that be true? Yes, obviously it's true, and obviously it could be true that your son is bored in a school that is the equivalent of the University of Tennessee. Again, JMHO.

Hatzlacha and I hope you find clarity very soon!

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

Acc. to dh, gemara learning can be comparable to law. It's crafting legal arguments within certain foundational principles of logic.

Want to add, this explanation speaks to me as an attorney. I find it hard to imagine someone who has that whole foundation, is brilliant, yet finds *all* of law boring. Sure, there are many CLE classes, and briefs and opinions, I wouldn't be interested in spending ten seconds perusing.

But to say that ALL of law is boring? The reconciliation of two opposing ideas should be, at the least, intellectually stimulating, as Camp says below.

Op here. Maybe he didn’t get to experience that. Since the level of the kids in his class is not as high as he needs it to be and most of the time in class is trying to explain the stuff that my son finds easy to grasp.

amother

Gray

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:41 pm

amother wrote:

Op here. So your dh likes the challenge. It is like the brain teasers that have you thinking and thinking until you get the answer or like I guess like your dh said: law. If my son is uninspired is he going to be interested in such a debate? Because btw he is very big on debates and found and joined a debate club. So why doesn’t he like the debate in the Gemara? I asked him before and he said that it’s not a high level debate and it’s obvious.
It might be that he is not inspired. Unfortunately he had some bad Rebbes and a lot of great secular teachers who adore him. Maybe this is the core of the problem. I’m not sure though.

As to the first bolded, my dh unfortunately does not love gemara, and he is (imvho) quite smart, but unfortunately he had a whole series of not great rabbeim and other difficulties in school, and he did not properly learn many of the language-related basics in yehsiva. It makes me sad, because I think he really has the head for it. We've hired tutors to learn with our boys.

I guess that's why I keep responding here. Maybe full time learning is not for your ds, but I would work to try different approaches before giving up.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Op here
Just saw this. You are right. I think it is a little too late now. He is practically burned out by the rebbes and doesn’t want to give it another chance. Especially since the secular teachers are all over him and he is being accepted by the best universities.

animeme

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:51 pm

There are a lot of options here. Based on some of what you have said, I want to encourage you to look outside the yeshivish box a little when it comes to post high school. Because my first instinct is Gush. There are a lot of serious intellectuals there, they learn a nice, intellectual gemarra, but they also do tanach is a sophisticated way.

Whether you look at Gush as a school or not, I encourage you to connect him with the Har Etzion beit midrash shiurim. They include high level, themed explorations of tanach. If he is currently discouraged with and avoiding gemarra, let him switch over to tanach to still be learning. They will also bring up rhemes that he can integrate with what ue is learnkg and thinking about in his other classes. And can help him connect to Hashem in a way tat is more natural to him.

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 3:54 pm

animeme wrote:

We considered gush. Ds inquired about it and spoke to numerous people. Ds said he thinks it’s not high level and boring. He might be wrong. As to tanach I don’t think it will inspire him at this point.

amother

Bisque

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:17 pm

Ok. You may not like this, but I feel a need to ask based on personal experience. Is your son by any chance on the Aspergers/autistic spectrum? I have a young adult like this, very high functioning ASD. Spent most of high school complaining that things were too boring and below her level, despite its being a high level school. We found that:

A) It is true, because she is that bright, but she will pretty much never be in a situation where her learning peers are holding where she is.
B) She did not feel connected to anything: not the school, the teachers, the other students... When she landed in a less academic setting post high school that was more about the whole person and had staff known for really listenkng and tailoring things to who you are, she still said things were easy, but she was engaged in it, and happy.

Basically, she wasn't going to be happy as long as there were other deficits in her environment and skills. Which leads me to: how are his executive functioning and flexibility skills? Because "I can't organize myself" or "I can't tolerate being taught to learn in a way that's different from works instinctively for me" can come out as "I'm bored."

Yes, he's getting the material. But he's not connecting to it. And it is extra important that he connects to yiddishkeit. Because the chief place he will find peers on his thinking level is in high level intellectual university programs, so you will want a solid background in yiddishkeit and emunah. So maybe let him explore text, audio and video shiurim to see if he finds something he likes.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:20 pm

camp wrote:

Mommyg8, I “forced” my husband to watch part of Chidon hatanach in e”y on you tube. He was blown away.
Show your kids a clip, (I know it’s not the “yeshivish” thing to do, but I do what I think is right and showed my family anyways). If they love a challenge, they’ll be pretty impressed and want to master tanach too.

Camp, in their spare time? You know the yeshiva schedule, it's like 12 hours a day, at least. One of my kids was in a yeshiva where they did learn tanach. So...

I like Rabbi Reisman and Rabbi Veiner's shiurim. They are both extremely interesting (on Tanach).

But to be perfectly honest, I'm ok with whatever they are learning, as long as they are happy Cool

. I would rather they pick up a bit of secular knowledge if they have extra time Confused

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:45 pm

amother wrote:

He is not on the spectrum at all. He is very personable and have very good friends. Has a great sense of humor and connects to a lot of his teachers and friends. He looks you in the eyes and I always tell him he could be a psychologist:)

naturalmom5

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:46 pm

animeme wrote:

My son learned in Har Etzion in Alon Shvut for 2 years and was very very happy.. Feel free to email me at aviara@hotmail.com for info..

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:47 pm

camp wrote:

You tube clip was one evening by supper for fun. We do a lot of tanach challenges by the Shabbos table. The girls know literally everything. Boys get into also. This weeks haftora was Shmuel beis. My husband went through it. The boys actually knew a lot too because they run through navi Bkius in elementary school.
But I get it, if not for the Shabbos table they wouldn’t either

Op here
Maybe if my son grew in an environment like that he would be inspired. You are lucky!

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 4:47 pm

esuss wrote:

It seems to me that his yeshiva is teaching gemoro bekius only - the literal meaning of the gemoro. If he is able to delve into the meforshim and learn with the Brisker style he will find it very challenging. It may not be available in his town but maybe his rebbe could teach that way to him privately. Or switch to a different rebbe who teaches that method.

totally. my nephews are in the brisker yeshiva. and its a known place that only handful of boys get in. its for the genius in our society.

esuss

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 5:09 pm

amother wrote:

totally. my nephews are in the brisker yeshiva. and its a known place that only handful of boys get in. its for the genius in our society.

I am sorry for being misunderstood when I said Brisker style of learning. I did not suggest that he should go to that yeshiva. What I meant was lots of yeshivos in USA use their style of learning gemoro it is a method of learning that the original Brisker Rov developed. It is highly intellectual and challenging for the smartest boys. Such a yeshiva may not be available in OPs town but it is very likely that the rebbeim and local men are familiar and could learn with him privately in this fashion.

Shuly

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 5:22 pm

Just to reiterate what everyone is saying:
Your son needs a new gemarah rebbi asap.

If you don't want to send him out of town, hire a man from the local kollel - explain the situation to the rosh kollel and ask him for a good fit.

My DH has learned with many boys like your son and has successfully ignited a love of learning in them.

I don't care how smart your son is. I have relatives with IQ's in the high 190's who find gemarah learning to be the most intellectually challenging thing out there because they were taught how to learn.