My highly gifted brilliant 17 yo ds says Gemara is boring

amother

Crimson

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 5:48 pm

Isn’t it possible your son has different interests that excite him?

Not all people have the same interests even if they are intellectually bright. Why is there only one path for any person. Some people love numbers; others are verbal: some have great emotional wisdom. Some are combinations. There are all kinds of different talents even among intellectually gifted people.

I am intellectually gifted as measured by objective criteria and I am excited to learn about many things but I would feel tortured if I were forced to be a CPA even though it takes skill and learning to be a CPA.

Of course I also relate to your son being bored. In elementary school I was extremely bored. It was only when I went to a school with other intellectually gifted girls that I found school to be inspiring and my classmates to be other girls with whom I could really connect. Classes were entirely different because teachers assumed that they didn’t have to actually teach the subjects but instead could use the factual material as a jumping off point for discussions.

There are spiritual people in many professions.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 6:16 pm

amother wrote:

Op here
Sounds amazing! Isn’t brisk is not straight after high school but after few years of Yeshiva?

Brisk, the yeshiva, is in Eretz Yisroel and the "boys" who go there are typically around 21 -22. So there are a few years to go. As someone upthread mentioned, there are yeshivos here that learn the "Brisker" way, so possibly that is something you can look into. And like someone upthread mentioned, these yeshivos are very intellectually challenging, with some yeshivos only accepting the brightest and the best.

octopus

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 6:40 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It sounds like the yeshiva is not really on board with your son. They are allowing him to skip class without finding out why (which school allows kids to skip class for any reason?), and they are not offering you more - whether it's a chavrusa, advice for a different yeshiva, private learning time with the Rebbe, or whatever.

I really think you should discuss this with someone IRL - someone who is not affiliated with your son's school, and who knows the ins and outs of the boys yeshiva system. Perhaps that person can help you come up with a real life solution. If your goal is to have your son love learning, this is not going to happen with the situation the way you described it - so maybe someone who knows you or your son can help you find a better solution.

I can assure you, that some of the yeshivas we have here in New York and New Jersey are on a very high level indeed, and no-one, not even the smartest boy, will be bored. The problem with having a yeshiva that caters to a community and that accepts anyone, is that the rebbe has to teach at the lowest level, to keep the entire class engaged and so that no-one will be left behind. In in-town communities, there are so many yeshivos that they have become somewhat segregated. I have heard this system criticized vehemently because of the disadvantage it gives the "weaker" students, but at the end of the day, there are yeshivos that definitely cater to extremely bright boys.

The way I understand it (and what I hear from the menfolk in my family) is that the issue is not the learning per se, it's the fact that the others in his class are not on his level. So there will be less give and take on an intellectual level that is challenging enough for him.

IMHO, I'm hearing your question like this - my son is in the University of Tennessee (making up a name) and my cousins who go to Harvard are saying that their classes are more challenging, could that be true? Yes, obviously it's true, and obviously it could be true that your son is bored in a school that is the equivalent of the University of Tennessee. Again, JMHO.

Hatzlacha and I hope you find clarity very soon!

I read this post of yours and have to agree with you!

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 7:14 pm

amother wrote:

Op here. I agree with you. But isn’t Gemara supposed to be for all Jewish boys?

amother

Beige

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:12 pm

amother wrote:

Op here
What do you mean by taught well.

I mean, how stimulating is the teacher making the shiur? It can be very surface level or it can be very deep.

Honestly, it would be a shame for your son to lose interest in gemara. As many posters suggested, have him learn with a very smart older bochur or avreich during the time his class is having shiur. Let him have a taste of what learning can be like. This has changed many boys' lives.

rowo

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:17 pm

Is there an older guy or kollel yungerman that he respects?
Are there subjects within Torah that he is interested in?

Torah is so vast, personally I would try to arrange for him to learn with someone outside of school (or during school hours, if he's not in class anyway), but find topics that do interest him. And for the time being drop the focus of Gemara, let him build up a love and interest in Torah .

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:48 pm

OP whats your sons internet usage like?

Gemorah learning is very stimulating for even very brilliant people. Look at all our gedolim. What your son is saying doesn't sound complete. Either he isn't expressing himself well, or something is off. It could well be that its not that great a yeshivah, but you did say its considered a good place.

OTOH, according to some people in chinuch, uninspired" "bored" "uninterested" are often indicators of online viewing. You may want to check it out.

amother

Pewter

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

I’ve heard very similar - that it’s an indication of being busy with “something else” (though not specifically the internet. Could be books just the same)

amother

Peach

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

Op here.
Since he got into computer science. He was doing high level computer programming with the help of the university professors. There was no way that we can restrict the internet because he rewrote the whole operating system for the computer. The professor practically said she never saw someone like him. With regards to his knowledge and talent not just computer science. So I guess once he lost the Gemara something had to fill the gap. It is very sad so you might be right that this is part of the reason he lost interest in Gemara. But on the other hand aren’t the boys at the gush Yeshiva have internet access and are still are exited about learning?

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

I don't agree with pewter - my brother was coding, like I said, since age 8, and it didn't affect his gemarah learning. (At least not when he was actually learning Smile

). When people talk about the internet harming the boy's learning, I think they mean games and inappropriate sites, not coding Smile

. But of course, if there is access... and naturally, you should monitor the sites he's on, not only because of his learning...

Your son sounds really special. You should have a lot of nachas from him, iy'h!

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

WhatFor

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 9:59 pm

OP- what is DS telling you he does like? What does he want to do?
Unfortunately, IMO he's beyond the age where you can push him to do something he really doesn't want to do.
I totally agree with trying to arrange for a more advanced chavrusah during that class (or anything during that class - even coding!- he should not be wandering the halls doing nothing!)
But at the end of the day, is he open to switching to another yeshiva for more stimulating gemarah?

animeme

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:02 pm

amother wrote:

Primarily gemara. It's a yeshiva in the classical brisker mode. They have optional chugim for Tanach and Jewish thought in the afternoons, but you're still studying gemara for many hours a day. A kid who doesn't like gemara won't belong there.

Agreed. I meant the website, since I had mentoned tanach as an alternate study for this young man. And I still think Gush may be worth another look, the more I hear about him. If not this year, then the next. If he finds something on the website that appeals, then he may look at the yeshiva differently.

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 10:23 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I suggest you take what he says seriously. Maybe gemara is just not for him. He isn’t saying that it isn’t hard enough he’s saying that the content is boring. I don’t think it being harder will make it any less boring. Don’t send him to some other yeshiva so he can be even more bored. Let him finish high school and then go to college and study something that is interesting and challenging. Don’t force him to do something he has no interest in. You’ll regret it.

And he'll get a PhD in who knows what but go through life with an unsophisticated level of Torah learning and a chip on his shoulder.
Gemara may not be for him but he hasn't had the opportunities he needs to make that decision fully.