Why cover your hair when wearing a mini skirt??

Dandelion1

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:41 pm

I think these issues are very complex. Many people are on personal "journeys" of self discovery that morph and change throughout their lives.

I've reached a point in my life, due to experiences and such, in which I find myself to be very unaffected by what seem to me to be fairly random norms of tznius. I haven't started wearing pants again (I grew up wearing pants and stopped) but I wouldn't hesitate to step outside on my porch in my extremely non form fitting, tunic style pants. I would not go outside without my hair covered though. Because I cover my hair. And the pants are covering my body, in a much less revealing fashion than the pencil skirt my neighbor is wearing. So to me, that makes a whole lot of sense.

But I understand your confusion. Human beings expect consistency. Just consider that to a large degree, societies have dictated what is consistent, and it is very subjective.

enneamom

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:46 pm

simba wrote:

Thanks Leah, I was going to come to OP'a defense as well but don't have the time to explain myself now. It is bothersome to those of us who live in insular communities and pretty much know that these people do not have cancer and are not bt's on the way in. Sheitel's stay longer then the rest of Tznius for various reasons. I guess at least that but it doesn't it make it right or less of a breach.

It might be true, and people do tend to get more worked up about others being "judgemental", while with bein adam lamakom breaches like tznius it's just "oh well, live and let live." Both should bother us. But it's more of a sadness that the person is losing touch with their yiddishkeit, I would think. Like why the bothered, angry tone, especially when you don't know the whole story. But I do think that attitude of non-judgementalness should go both ways.

southernbubby

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:49 pm

I know people like that; whose only tznius observance is wearing some type of hair covering. Some of them had bad experiences in the frum community and express their anger that way, others want to show that they are now more lenient in everything, and yet others might be saying that chumrahs were forced on them to the point where they couldn't do everything and this is how they express their frustration. And still others dress that way because their friends dress that way or their husbands don't object.

And then I have seen some who had left observance all together and have come back but realize that they can keep more by keeping less, if that makes sense.

leah233

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:50 pm

anon for this wrote:

If you're talking to me, then my answer is that yes, I do generally try to avoid judging other people. But I'm particularly averse to judging other women for how they dress, because I don't see how that affects other people. And because it seems to me that women are too often judged for their clothing.

I wasn't talking to anyone specific.

Many others believe that there are few aveiros that affect other people more than they way women dress. Even the secular world talks about being dressed provocatively.

Last edited by leah233 on Thu, May 03 2018, 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:52 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Cancer.

People cover their hair while wearing miniskirts and tank tops when they have cancer, and have lost their hair.

Feel better about judging?

Cancer patients are usually covering bald heads or heads where the hair has just started growing back. Religious hair coverings, other than wigs, usually expose a small amount of hair that a chemotherapy patient does not have.

If you know that the person is frum, it is unlikely that their short skirt and long wig is related to illness.

allthingsblue

Thu, May 03 2018, 7:56 pm

It seems you were really bothered by the fact that it was a mini skirt. But why? If it would have been a skirt just a tad above the knees, would you have had the same reaction? According to your logic, a little but above the knees should be just as bad as a mini skirt...

Bottom line- this is a huge challenge in today's day and age. I myself find it a lot harder to cover my knees than to cover my hair. Covering my hair actually makes life easier; I don't have to shower every night like I used to for fresh looking hair.
Also, in some circles (probably yours, too!) uncovering the hair is a much bolder statement than uncovering the knees.

anon for this

Thu, May 03 2018, 9:42 pm

leah233 wrote:

I am aware of that. I probably should have said that I personally don't feel that I am affected by a woman wearing a mini-skirt.

For those who feel that way, though, it seems to me that the sort of judgement expressed in the OP is counterproductive. Personally, I do wear my skirts and sleeves long. But if I don't, whether because I'm more comfortable that way or because that's where I am spiritually, someone who considers me ridiculous or hypocritical is unlikely to convince me to change. However, if I sense that the other person accepts me as someone who's trying her best, then she may be able to inspire me to dress differently, or at least to change how I dress around her.

If you do feel that a woman dressing in a certain way is an aveirah that affects other people more than most, doesn't it make sense to try to react in a way that's most likely to change her behavior?

fmt4

Thu, May 03 2018, 9:50 pm

leah233 wrote:

For a group that is so non-judgmental can't you accept that someone can really be bothered by a major breach in tznius? Or to paraphrase the OPs question are you all really so strict about never judging other Jews or are there certain type of behaviors that you can't tolerate people being judged for but otherwise judge away?

No I really cannot fathom caring even one single bit about how another person covers their body. It’s so so strange and foreign to me.

simba

Thu, May 03 2018, 9:52 pm

fmt4 wrote:

No I really cannot fathom caring even one single bit about how another person covers their body. It’s so so strange and foreign to me.

Do you have a problem taking your children to a topless beach?

Maryann

Thu, May 03 2018, 10:10 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

This

jkl

Thu, May 03 2018, 10:11 pm

simba wrote:

Do you have a problem taking your children to a topless beach?

Using extremism to attempt to rationalize a position usually weakens an argument, imo. Topless is an considered a mode of undress, not dress. It is not accepted in any society, religious or not. Covering the knees, elbows and collarbones is a religious position, and not a societal one. Why should it faze me how another person enacts her own religious position? It's between her, Hashem and perhaps her own inner circle (family and husband). I cannot profess to know her inner thinkings, what her Rabbi has advised her, or current stance in life.

I stick to worrying about my own concerns and my own religious and spiritual obligations.

jkl

Thu, May 03 2018, 10:31 pm

simba wrote:

Read fmt4's post, she is as extreme as I am.

I did. What's extreme about not caring how another person covers their body, especially related to religious concerns? Like I said above, that's between Hashem and her, not between me and her.

The best position in life to take is to worry about someone's else gashmiyus and your own ruchniyos.

singleagain

Thu, May 03 2018, 11:05 pm

simba wrote:

Considering how private ppl can be and how many secrets are covered up for fear, even in an insular community you might not know the health status of someone else. ... Someone I know since I was a kid recently revealed personal secrets I could have never known about growing up even though I felt like she was a second family to me.

Bottom line and to refer back to topic ... Don't presume to know the full story unless it's your story. And even then judge yourself kindly, bc sometimes when you're in the middle of the story you can't see clearly.

Chana Miriam S

Thu, May 03 2018, 11:57 pm

Three years ago, there was a tragic accident in our little out of town community and a number of women took on covering their hair in the hopes that the child would have a recovery. She was niftaret a couple of weeks later, but many of those women, some completely non religious, still cover their hair. It is totally normal to see women in pants or shirt skirts or short sleeves in our community with their hair covered.

Leahh

Fri, May 04 2018, 12:03 am

How many of you that responded live in Brooklyn?
Although op's question was specifically about one person, the overall level of tznius in Brooklyn has gone down significantly. It is the norm for people to walk around with skirts above the knees. People that wouldn't have worn those same skirts a few years ago when it wasn't in style. I noticed midi is coming back in. I'm waiting to see what will be.
Also, op mentioned her elbows weren't covered either. So maybe this woman is different than the ones I'm referring to. Most of the ones I see that wear mini skirts do cover their elbows. Go figure.

jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 12:27 am

Leahh wrote:

Not to sidetrack this thread, but imo the recent lapse in tznius is an outgrowth of the extreme clampdown on tznius of late. When you push so far, it will have an opposite effect. There were so many new rules implemented, many of which made no sense at all, that it caused people to start backing away from it all. The multitude of new rules blurred the lines between the significant and insignificant ones and lumped them all together. It has caused people to become more indifferent and apathetic towards tznius instead of creating any warmth and passion for it.

heidi

Fri, May 04 2018, 1:44 am

Admittedly I also don't conform to OP's standards of tzniut bcz. I don't wear stockings and do wear open toed shoes (as per R' Moshe) but I have to admit that I understand her feelings. I really really try not to be judgy. But there's something about that woman standing in shul on YK, davening her heart out, wearing cap sleeves and a hairband as a headcovering. ON YOM KIPPUR, it makes me nuts. So yes, I know I should appreciate that she's davening, and for goodness sake, mind my own business and focus on my own aveirot which are probably more plentiful than hers. And I try. But my knee jerk reaction is why?? If you care so much, why not cover yourself up a bit more.
So I understand OP's feeling.

mommy2379

Fri, May 04 2018, 2:40 am

I used to feel similar, like why bother? Don’t pretend to be something you’re not. but I recently listened to an amazing series on hair covering and I feel very differently. Hair covering is it’s own special mitzvah, and a big one at that. I wouldnt judge someone who breaks shabbos and doesn’t cover their hair, but keeps a kosher kitchen. I wouldn’t judge someone “eats out” but keeps shabbos. Even if mini skirt’s intentions with her sheital are just to look good, she’s still covering her hair and that itself is the mitzvah- not the intentions behind it. I say kol hakavod to her.