Why cover your hair when wearing a mini skirt??

imasoftov

Fri, May 04 2018, 6:27 am

shiaeisen wrote:

I’m very sad about the lowering of tznius standards in Brooklyn. But what shocks me most is, today for instance, I saw a woman wearing a mini skirt (yes, mini, not just an inch or two above knees), and short sleeves, and....covering her hair! I just wondered what this woman is thinking! Does she think it’s assur to not cover hair, but muttar to wear minis and short sleeves? Aside from the halachic implications, I think she just looks ridiculous, a walking lesson in hypocrisy. Anyone?

Have you considering changing your avatar from an eye to something else?

fmt4

Fri, May 04 2018, 7:06 am

heidi wrote:

Admittedly I also don't conform to OP's standards of tzniut bcz. I don't wear stockings and do wear open toed shoes (as per R' Moshe) but I have to admit that I understand her feelings. I really really try not to be judgy. But there's something about that woman standing in shul on YK, davening her heart out, wearing cap sleeves and a hairband as a headcovering. ON YOM KIPPUR, it makes me nuts. So yes, I know I should appreciate that she's davening, and for goodness sake, mind my own business and focus on my own aveirot which are probably more plentiful than hers. And I try. But my knee jerk reaction is why?? If you care so much, why not cover yourself up a bit more.
So I understand OP's feeling.

Wow I feel the EXACT opposite. The less tznius a woman is, the more beautiful and special her davening on YK is to me. It just shows that connection to g-d goes beyond all of that. I think it’s so pure and awe inspiring.

Forrealx

Fri, May 04 2018, 7:17 am

In my community most married women are wearing hats and skirts in shul, outside shul they are wearing short sleeves, pants, skirts without stockings etc.
When I was younger I was more involved in Chabad circles where I was covered from neck to toe, I also went to a lot of Chabad houses (and I still do with dh) on city trips and then I heard the assumption that Lubavitcher women in CH are like '' Only need to cover my hair when I'm married and that is what I do'' it is not 100% true it is an exaggeration which I hear often. And sometimes I really could reckon the girls who were from CH and who weren't from CH, their skirts were shorter, some did not wear stockings, the necklines where lower.
For me I don't care. Even when I visit Antwerp for business reasons and I walk in the Jewish quarter and go to their stores I wear a decent trousers. Had once a coversation with this haredi women when I was clothing very haredi ''What if I came to this store with decent trousers not denim but you know decent and a decent blouse? And I was asking the same thing, buying a shabbosrobe for if I'm at Chabad friends for chag/shabbos and I want to go to the toilet and be more dressed?'' ''Oh'' she said ''I would help you I would think she is not chassidish or haredi she is a MO girl who respects her more observant friends'' and now since the Chabad derech is not my way anymore I visit this store in trousers very funny.

Ok my opinion is just let her way, maybe she is not jewish at all? That hair disease wich causes hairloss can be the reason of chas ve shalom cncr can be the reason. Don't judge it.

SuperWify

Fri, May 04 2018, 7:48 am

jkl wrote:

Not to sidetrack this thread, but imo the recent lapse in tznius is an outgrowth of the extreme clampdown on tznius of late. When you push so far, it will have an opposite effect. There were so many new rules implemented, many of which made no sense at all, that it caused people to start backing away from it all. The multitude of new rules blurred the lines between the significant and insignificant ones and lumped them all together. It has caused people to become more indifferent and apathetic towards tznius instead of creating any warmth and passion for it.

I agree! 💯%!

Applause

saw50st8

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:17 am

heidi wrote:

There are halachic opinions that allow for both capped sleeves and a hairband as a headcovering. Why does that bother you?

SpottedBanana

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:25 am

fmt4 wrote:

Asking non-sarcastically, do you think Hashem feels that way? If so, why do you think He made tznius a mitzvah at all?

I'm sure that some non-tznuah women davening on YK are connected to Hashem but don't dress properly for whatever reason, but just as some obese people diet and diet but the biggest risk factor for obesity is still poor diet, some non-tznuah women may be very connected to Hashem but the biggest risk factor for not being tznuah is not caring all that much about halacha.

How does this affect us? It does affect the quality of the neighborhood, e.g. peer pressure for teens and also for adults, and a short skirt on an otherwise frum women is a subtle banner reading "I care more about fashion/looking good than I care about halacha", which desensitizes a person to what really matters.

As for the OP, the fact is that many women especially in Brooklyn cover their hair but not their knees. Why on earth should they take their wigs off?

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:28 am

anon for this wrote:

If you're talking to me, then my answer is that yes, I do generally try to avoid judging other people. But I'm particularly averse to judging other women for how they dress, because I don't see how that affects other people. And because it seems to me that women are too often judged for their clothing.

You “don’t see how that affect others?” Seriously? Perhaps you should look into the subject more. I learned that for every time a man looks at a woman who is not dressed according to Halacha, or has an improper thought at the time, not only does the man get a sin, but so does the woman who caused it through her lack of tznius. You may not like it, you can disagree, but then take it up with G-d because He made the rules.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:31 am

leah233 wrote:

For a group that is so non-judgmental can't you accept that someone can really be bothered by a major breach in tznius? Or to paraphrase the OPs question are you all really so strict about never judging other Jews or are there certain type of behaviors that you can't tolerate people being judged for but otherwise judge away?

Thanks for being one of the few voices of reason. And for those trying to excuse away the lack of tznius, and justify her reason for wearing a Shaitel, you all just assumed she was wearing a Shaitel. In fact she was wearing a snood.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:34 am

simba wrote:

Thanks Leah, I was going to come to OP'a defense as well but don't have the time to explain myself now. It is bothersome to those of us who live in insular communities and pretty much know that these people do not have cancer and are not bt's on the way in. Sheitel's stay longer then the rest of Tznius for various reasons. I guess at least that but it doesn't it make it right or less of a breach.

Indeed you’re right, and for those of us who have sons, there certainly is a reason to be upset, aside from any halachic problems the woman has...and for those speaking about my “self righteous attitude,” I’d suggest YOU reread your posts here and decide whether YOU are the one acting self righteous now!

Forrealx

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:37 am

shiaeisen wrote:

~~this was just the reason I quit Chabad~~ What if I have a ''improper thought'' when a hot guy takes his shirt off? Or when I run in the forest and I see a guy running without his shirts (ooh helloooooo Cool

) ? Never any any Rabbi/Rebbetzen was talking about that. No women don't have urges they are only busy to buy kartoffelech for kugel. Furthermore when I'm wearing tznius and I men looks at me and thinks '' ooh hellooooooo Cool

'' I'm I still sinful? What I've learned (and this was from a chabad/kabbalah rabbi) is regarding to tznius you don't need to do it because you have to but because you ''want'' it you don't get anything from G-d more or less if you are doing something because G-d loves already every neshama.
And why is it wrong to look at G-ds beautiful creations like the women and the men?

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:39 am

thunderstorm wrote:

First of all it's not our business. But besides there are women who wear wigs because it looks better than their hair. I know people that wear pants and a wig and are frum. We don't all fit in the same box of "frum" and it's not our place to look and judge others.

Actually you’re quite wrong; it IS our business, as we have sons and husbands who may be guilty of aveiros of looking or thinking lewd thoughts when seeing these types of dress on the streets, as well as, and more importantly, our halachic obligation to speak up when we see someone committing an aveira. Had I not been driving when I saw this woman, I might’ve stopped her, said hello, and delicately suggested that perhaps she might thing about adding to her mitzvah of covering her hair by also covering up a little more of the rest...it’s something that has to be done with sensitivity and diplomacy but nevertheless it is an obligation, no matter how uncomfortable.

watergirl

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:40 am

SpottedBanana wrote:

There are a lot of instances where someone has a struggle with something. For some itz tznius. For others its LH. For many, its honesty in business. Have we so quickly forgotten about all of the fraud in certain schools and communities that’s gotten so much negative attention from the secular news? All the welfare fraud? And imo, thats worse than a tznius infraction because many of those people think that they arent doing anything wrong. And still some are just following the fraudulent direction of others when applying for government benefits. So does the excuse “I didnt know that I was doing the wrong thing” equally applicable for tznius as it is for other matters? How do ALL of the infractions affect the neighborhood? Why is the focus on tznius? Why is the answer to shame women? People getting cancer? Women - cut your wigs! Be more “tznius”!

I agree with the poster who suggested that so much of tznius has become extreme that its hard to know where the real lines are. For some, these measures are unattainable or undesirable and have become even questionable. And when there is such hypocrisy in other aspects of the “quality of the neighborhood”, why is it so shocking that skirts get shorter?

You asked, how do I think Hashem feels? How would I know how HKBH looks at His children? We’re taught that He is out loving father. I think He feels that when we do our best, He is happy. So He maybe shepping nachas from that women in shul on YK with capped sleeves and a hair band.

Doesnt the shaliach tzibur on YK say that he is a sinner? Arent we all?

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:41 am

Gerbera wrote:

I think we should look at what people are doing rather than focusing on what they are not doing. Its absolutely no one's business why people choose to observe some things and not others. Are you aware that people wear wigs for medical reasons? Leave the woman be. We should focus on improving ourselves and not wondering about other people. Should we wonder why you choose to cover your hair and dress tzanua yet you would like to gossip about a woman? That's picking and choosing what to observe as well. Unfortunately our community is full of ppl who dress the dress but certainly don't act the part...just read a handful of threads on here

She was wearing a snood.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 8:43 am

aleph wrote:

I think these issues are very complex. Many people are on personal "journeys" of self discovery that morph and change throughout their lives.

I've reached a point in my life, due to experiences and such, in which I find myself to be very unaffected by what seem to me to be fairly random norms of tznius. I haven't started wearing pants again (I grew up wearing pants and stopped) but I wouldn't hesitate to step outside on my porch in my extremely non form fitting, tunic style pants. I would not go outside without my hair covered though. Because I cover my hair. And the pants are covering my body, in a much less revealing fashion than the pencil skirt my neighbor is wearing. So to me, that makes a whole lot of sense.

But I understand your confusion. Human beings expect consistency. Just consider that to a large degree, societies have dictated what is consistent, and it is very subjective.

You make a lot of sense and appreciate your honesty and self awareness. As far as some of the others, so “outraged” by what I wrote, I’d bet that they themselves are lacking in proper tznius, and are merely trying to justify it and ease their own guilt or lack thereof, by attacking me. It’s all good. Everyone has their own relationship with G-d but justifying behavior that does not conform with Halacha is just dishonest.