Why cover your hair when wearing a mini skirt??

jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:16 am

shiaeisen wrote:

What “extreme clampdown of tznius” are you referring to? I haven’t heard of any such thing at all. And I highly doubt even if there was one, that that would make more than only a small percentage want to rebel and do the opposite. Rabbi Eli Mansour shlita even said to a roomful of women (mostly sefardi) that he must speak up and tell the truth, and the truth is that HIS community needs to try harder to cover up. Is he being judgmental or not understanding enough too? If anything, sefardi women have more of a reason or justification to not dress more with tznius, because that’s how they all grew up, and their parents and grandparents did the same. In the ashkenzi community, with a huge percentage having gone to frum schools in which it was expected to dress covered up, there’s no excuse of not having known better.

Huh? Which world do you live in? I don't know anything about the Sefardi community, but in the NY area, the influx of new rules, unrelated to Halacha, have become so oppressing, that people are just fed up with it all. This situation is a perfect example of why we shouldn't add to the Torah. They've added so many rules, that its now difficult to distinguish which one is an actual halacha, which one is a gedar and which one is superfluous.

And these new rules are new inventions, so they were NOT around when I was young, nor did my parent and grandparents follow any of these rules. Please stop revising history.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:18 am

Forrealx wrote:

~~this was just the reason I quit Chabad~~ What if I have a ''improper thought'' when a hot guy takes his shirt off? Or when I run in the forest and I see a guy running without his shirts (ooh helloooooo Cool

) ? Never any any Rabbi/Rebbetzen was talking about that. No women don't have urges they are only busy to buy kartoffelech for kugel. Furthermore when I'm wearing tznius and I men looks at me and thinks '' ooh hellooooooo Cool

'' I'm I still sinful? What I've learned (and this was from a chabad/kabbalah rabbi) is regarding to tznius you don't need to do it because you have to but because you ''want'' it you don't get anything from G-d more or less if you are doing something because G-d loves already every neshama.
And why is it wrong to look at G-ds beautiful creations like the women and the men?

Sorry but according to the Torah, the tznius issues are specifically on the woman precisely because men have more struggles in the area of lust than women. That’s why there’s no Halacha that men can’t show their elbows or knees...of course men do cover up and dress appropriately but the Halacha of tznius is not th same as for women, so your entire premise is based on non fact and against what the Torah says. And it is an outright Halacha that men are forbidden from gazing at a woman (other than wife), whether you agree with it or not, but that’s the Torah.

jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:21 am

[quote="shiaeisen"]

SpottedBanana wrote:

the biggest risk factor for not being tznuah is not caring all that much about halacha.

How does this affect us? It does affect the quality of the neighborhood, e.g. peer pressure for teens and also for adults, and a short skirt on an otherwise frum women is a subtle banner reading "I care more about fashion/looking good than) quote

BINGO! One of the few her that actually gets it! I can only conclude that those so vehemently defending the lack of tznius are thos who themselves are lacking and trying to justify their own behavior. Otherwise, why the outrage????

Your posts scream self-righteousness, arrogance and smugness. I sure hope you aren't in any field trying to persuade people to keep halacha, because your attitude would do just the opposite.

Consistently labeling anonymous people on the web as must be lacking in tznius, just because they disagree with your opinion is mind boggling. Do you know that you can be perfectly tznius and still understand the struggles of others?

relish

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:22 am

Shia Eisen wrote:

What was your point in bringing this up? Is it to vent? To educate? To preach? To share? To debate?

I'm curious as to your motives. Your op is inflammatory, and it seems like you've accomplished that goal.

What is the purpose now?
How can we help you?

Last edited by relish on Fri, May 04 2018, 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total

watergirl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:23 am

[quote="shiaeisen"]

SpottedBanana wrote:

You yourself are being oveir being dan lkaf zchus with these statements. Imo thats even worse than a breach of tznius.

watergirl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:25 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Yes it’s your opinion, and it’s also a wrong one. No human being knows which sins are “worse” in the eyes of Hashem, and even a “small,easy” mitzvah is precious in His eyes, the value and worth of which we do not have the understanding to know,

Interesting that of all my posts on this thread, thats the one you reply to.

And you’ve answered this whole thread perfectly with your reply. Every mitzvah is precious to HKBH. So lay off this woman please. At least he hair was covered.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:26 am

healthymom1 wrote:

We are not punished because a man may not have self control. There are many men who can walk down the street and not check out every undresssd woman. We keep tznius for ourselves and yes for our nation. But it is not because of the men. A man looking is not the base of where our mitzvos of tznius comes from. if you don't want your husband or sons to look teach them the importance of keeping their minds neshama pure = teach them how to gain self control.
Yes in a perfect world we would all dress tznius. But that doesn't mean we would all dress the same. There isn't only 1 way to follow the Torah. But the base of the Torah is to not judge others and love our neighbors like ourselves. Mashiach can and will still come if we are in pants covering our hair. But he will not come if we sit and judge others and worry about making everyone into the same box.

I do agree that if someone goes to a more religious area, out of respecr they should try and dress more modest.

The Torah isn't an all or nothing lifestyle. We are all growing (hopefully). Taking steps that we are able to.

You’re actually quite wrong on all you said. I’d suggest buying some seforim on tznius and learning before you decide what you THINK is what the Torah demands. Indeed women who cause lewd thoughts due to their dress do get the aveiroh....like I said before, you can hate that, disagree, think it’s unfair, but it’s the Torah.

jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:29 am

shiaeisen wrote:

I think you should be the one buying the seforim on tnzius and see what is actually considered to be halacha and what's not. And find out on whom the actual responsibility lies.

BadTichelDay

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:31 am

I feel very often tempted to judge other women's dress code. If it's someone who is dressed more leniently than me, I almost automatically think "hey, look at that, I can see her knees or, she's got half a meter of hair hanging out etc." It goes the other way as well: If it's someone dressed significantly more frum than me, I can't help thinking "hey, there comes batman, or, nice burkah". But I try hard to fight these thoughts. Whenever they jump into my head, I stop and ask myself if I want Hashem to judge me in the same way I judge others. Of course not, so I stop it. But it is a constant challenge. I don't think it is my place to tell other people what to wear or to reprimand anyone (other than my children).

jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:32 am

shiaeisen wrote:

!

But apparently you know which one is worse in the eyes of Hashem! You would approach an anonymous woman and discuss her tznius with her, risking embarrassing her, shaming her and possibly increase feelings of distaste towards yiddishkeit!

What does the Torah say about embarrassing one?! Apparently, you're rating tznius as being worse in the eyes of Hashem than embarrassing and shaming, because you're willing to prioritize tznius over embarrassing somebody!!

shabbatiscoming

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:32 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Had I not been driving when I saw this woman, I might’ve stopped her, said hello, and delicately suggested that perhaps she might thing about adding to her mitzvah of covering her hair by also covering up a little more of the rest...it’s something that has to be done with sensitivity and diplomacy but nevertheless it is an obligation, no matter how uncomfortable.

NO, THIS SHOULD NEVER BE DONE. EVER!!!!!! You are NOT the tzniut police. Someone did that to me. Very nicely. Wont tell you wgat I wanted to do and say yo her but lets just say it fid not make me want yo be more tzanua but less. Please, dont play god. You worry about yourself and let each person worry sbout themselves. To me somrone who would go over to someone and fo this is extremely rude and not something that is right to do.

shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:33 am

momnaturally wrote:

I think what bothers her and what bothers op as well is that when a person wears a sheitel in a frum community that means they identify as part of that community. So when they come dressed with a miniskirt and short sleeves it makes it more acceptable for the next person who's skirt is questionable to feel comfortable and the next woman who never would have contemplated wearing a mini skirt all of a sudden it's not totally rejected. Take another dozen women who start with mini skirts and all of a sudden it became acceptable and don't be judgemental...so a lot more people lose their sensitivity to tznius.
If she shed the Shaitel in a way it's better because then she is not taking down the standards rather she is identifying as part of a different class/community of people.
Most people are affected by others especially if they are part of the same affiliation
Op was not trying to help the lady with a miniskirt. She was trying to hold on to her own sensitivities and I totally am with her on it.

Thank you! Another voice of reason. And now I’ll share something I heard Mrs. Carol Haber say in a Shiur which will probably, hopefully, shock some of the naysayers here, as it did all of us in the Shiur. She used to be more “modern” as she was brought up modern, and years ago she belonged to a PTA group in her son’s very frum Yeshiva (I think it was Torah V’daas but don’t remember) as at the time, there weren’t many sefardi Yeshiva available. So at the time, she did not cover her hair. She went to one of these women's Meetings in her son’s Yeshiva, with no head covering, and a very frum looking woman with a Shaitel came over to her and said, “You know, I so admire that you don’t care what people think about your not covering your hair, so I decided I’m going to be like you, and I am no longer going to wear a Shaitel!” Carol Haber, at that point in the Shiur (after everyone gasped in horror, and visibly saw her pain), then picked up a strand of her Shaitel and said, “I’m trying to fix it.” If that story doesn’t horrify you and put everything in perspective about how it indeed IS everyone’s business, then I don’t know what to say.

relish

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:36 am

Here is my take on being judgmental.
If I feel judgmental, it means that I'm judging myself, and I can't tolerate it, so I'm projecting my judgmental feelings onto the next person.

I have found that the remedy for that is to love the judgemental part of me, and send love to the other person.

The Baal Shem tov, and many other gedolim said that the way to bring people back is through love, so loving them in my heart, is actually more effective then judging and preaching.

It also helps me focus on my plate, instead of on others.

Op, your posts made me do a double take on my perception of those who preach before looking inward. Thank you. I realized that I have room to grow in that area, and I'm grateful to you for helping me see that.