Today show interview

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 9:55 pm

I've been trying to follow this thread...

Thank you Maya, PinkFridge, and Crust for being three voices of reason in this crazy story.

Now, I may get lots of tomatoes thrown at me for saying this, but.... I watched her interview, I read some of her writings, and ... I really do believe her story. The way she wrote about her experiences in her marriage, and the way she spoke - I don't know, to me it had the ring of truth, and to be honest, my heart went out to her.

The only point that I have issue is with her portraying this as a normal Chassidic marriage, which it emphatically wasn't. I went to a Chassidish school, and I don't think a marriage like hers was the norm at all among my classmates. Almost everyone, I think, knew about birth control, and very many of them were very much in love when they first got married - even if they had just met once before their engagement. So this is not the norm, but I picture a very innocent naive and well meaning girl going through this? Yes, I could. Can I picture a very well meaning young girl believing that birth control is not the right way? Yes, I could.

It sounds from the few details that other posters have written that there is a lot that contributed to this story. First, the facts alone - her husband was 17 - that is not the norm, even in very Chassidish marriages. Second, it seems that her parents did not have a healthy relationship, and her mother especially was fixated on perfection - I think this contributed to the fact that she tried to make the marriage work for many years even though she was so unhappy, as she probably thought that she was doing the right thing in staying in an extremely unhappy marriage.

As for those who say that she was a dysfunctional mother - how many of you have had two sets of twins six years apart? How many of you have had two sets of twins six years apart while living in a very unhappy and unhealthy marriage? Can anyone who is reading this thread even begin to imagine what she went through?

And I know many mothers who have gone through hard times, including PPD. And mothers who have gone through periods of extreme dysfunction. Not one of them had their children taken away from them.

I am also wondering what the point of emphasizing her emotional health on this thread is. We know she was unhappy, we know she went through an extremely hard time, possibly extreme PPD, after the birth of her twins. None of this is being debated. She admits to this. So why is this being emphasized here over and over again? Did PPD suddenly become a crime?

And for those that say that others in the community did not have their children taken away from them- maybe others didn't, but in her case, they were taken away, so the conversation doesn't start.

ETA: It is true that she should not have gone public with her complaints and that this is a chillul Hashem. And I have been told that posters on this thread know personally that she made a lot of this up. I have no idea, I'm bowing out of this.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Fri, Jun 01 2018, 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:08 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I've been trying to follow this thread...

Thank you Maya, PinkFridge, and Crust for being three voices of reason in this crazy story.

The only complaint that I have in what Etty is saying and writing is her portrayal of the Chassidish world. She makes it sound as if the experiences she went through are the norm in the Chassidish world - which they emphatically are NOT. But, my sympathies are still with her, because - can any one of you say, for sure, that there have been no other stories just like hers? I am extremely torn here - because what she has done is a chillul Hashem, but on the other hand - who says it won't lead to some real changes in the frum world?

First of all, thanks!
Second, I think this is where some of the more vocal posters are coming from. Not just that they may have some inside knowledge but that they're pained by the portrayal of their community.

I'm sure there are hashtags out there along the line of "Chassidic and very happily married thank you very much."

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:14 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I think the question turns out to be - is this about Chassidim or is this about dysfunction and emotional problems? Can it possibly be that a combination of very early marriage, extreme control by the parents, and an extremely sheltered upbringing contributed to this?

But I think what bothers me more is the many posters here who keep pointing out how unstable and dysfunctional she was. What's the point? She admits that she was extremely unhappy, and she admits that she had PPD. What's the point in saying this over and over again? And why does that mean she doesn't get her kids?

pause

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:49 pm

Mommyg8, much of what you wrote is not based on true facts.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 10:55 pm

pause wrote:

Mommyg8, much of what you wrote is not based on true facts.

Which part of what I wrote is not true? I'll change it then.

Mevater

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:07 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I am extremely torn here - because what she has done is a chillul Hashem, but on the other hand - who says it won't lead to some real changes in the frum world?

Like how?

In Chassidic communities, Rebbes rule, and Rebbes really dont care about what she says.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:11 pm

Mevater wrote:

Like how?

In Chassidic communities, Rebbes rule, and Rebbes really dont care about what she says.

I don't think that's true anymore.

pause

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Which part of what I wrote is not true? I'll change it then.

Does it really matter? You're taking all your information straight from her, believing her point blank. And that's the problem. You're judging many people (her mother, her husband, all the people who took in her kids) based on her comments. That's really not fair. And that's what some of us are objecting to.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:19 pm

pause wrote:

I judged nobody. I believe that she went through a very traumatic experience, I believe that she was very unhappy in her marriage. I am certainly not pointing fingers at anybody to assign blame. I'm sure all the people who took in her kids were very kind people and did a tremendous mitzvah. That still does not give them the right to judge as to who was the right or wrong one in their marriage, and if she is well enough - at this point - to get custody of her children.

Courts give custody to parents all the time even when they know that the care the biological mother will give will be less than the care the children will get in foster homes. Courts generally believe that children belong with their real parents, unless there is a real danger to their life.

I am certainly not judging anyone in this story,and from the way she described her story it sounds as if there is no-one who is to blame. It's just a sad story.

Mevater

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:22 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't think that's true anymore.

So who runs the show now?

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:27 pm

Mevater wrote:

So who runs the show now?

In which Chassidus? Let's break it down one by one...

I think public opinion runs the show for many.

crust

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:27 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't think that's true anymore.

I dont see how her interview is going to change any community in any which way. I have said this on other threads. There is a mehalech in making change in a community. This is not the mehalech.

Mommyg8

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:30 pm

crust wrote:

I dont see how her interview is going to change any community in any which way. I have said this on other threads. There is a mehalech in making change in a community. This is not the mehalech.

Duly chastised....

So I'll go back to my post and change it. there is no benefit to her going public, so I am no longer torn...

crust

Thu, May 31 2018, 11:35 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

If I want to dig deeper into this, the bolded would be the outstanding thing here.

I know more than one woman that went the Footsteps route. ALL of them have custody no matter how hard their husbands fought for these children. Yes, the community fought tooth and nail and literally poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into lawyers and courts but the mother won them period.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 12:05 am

So I'm understanding that some on this thread have personal knowledge that she is making this all up. I don't know anything about this except what I read and see online... I think we will all agree that it's a very sad story. Good night!

Mevater

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 12:47 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

In which Chassidus? Let's break it down one by one...

I think public opinion runs the show for many.

I find this fascinating. If this is accurate, this is a major change.

Even among Ultra Chassidic groups, the Rebbes are sensitive to and open to public opinion, rather than hard line, my way or the highway approach to their Chassidim's way of life?

pause

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 8:00 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

This story is tragic, and as I said previously, there are many victims here.

pause

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 8:08 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Where do you take this from? And that's what you mean by not judging?

And this excerpt from your previous post is also completely non-judgmental???
Second, it seems that her parents did not have a healthy relationship, and her mother especially was fixated on perfection - think this contributed to the fact that she tried to make the marriage work for many years even though she was so unhappy, as she probably thought that she was doing the right thing in staying in an extremely unhappy marriage.

Mommyg8 wrote:

Courts give custody to parents all the time even when they know that the care the biological mother will give will be less than the care the children will get in foster homes. Courts generally believe that children belong with their real parents, unless there is a real danger to their life.

I am certainly not judging anyone in this story,and from the way she described her story it sounds as if there is no-one who is to blame. It's just a sad story.

Maya

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 8:49 am

Mevater wrote:

In a fantasy world, maybe.

There are some groups, like Belz, which are open to slightly more input from public opinion and make some small changes accordingly. But they are a rare exception.

InnerMe

Fri, Jun 01 2018, 10:36 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Thank you Pink for understanding.