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Russian meddling (hypothetical)
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:40 am
This is a purely hypothetical question of course.

Let's say a country meddled in our election in a way that helped your candidate win.

But you like that candidate, like his policies, like what he's doing to the country.

Does it bother you that a foreign country interfered? Would you be grateful to them for helping your candidate? Do you think anything should be done to stop it from happening in the future?

What if (again hypothetically) the candidate you liked adopted unprecedented positions that supported that country? Would you see it as fair payback for their help in the election?

In short: Is there any theoretical reason to stop foreign interference in an election, if it helps candidates you like?

Now remember, this is a hypothetical question. I don't want a debate over whether it happened or whether it had any effect.

I want to hear pro-con arguments on why we should prevent foreign interference if it helps elect candidates we like.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:53 am
Of course there's a reason to stop foreign interference in an election, even if you happen to enjoy the results. A foreign government does not have your country's best interests in heart.
Even if the results are good for you now, you don't want this kind of leverage from another government. Especially Russia as they are a hostile super power.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:53 am
I lean more conservative/libertarian btw.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:57 am
Israel had this issue during the last election cycle where it was disclosed that NGO's associated with the American State Dept were trying to oust Bibi.

EU funded NGOs operating in Israel is an ongoing sore point and I do think that it is wrong for foreign governments to try to undermine domestic affairs in this way. If they have issues with Israel, their foreign affairs offices should deal with that.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/fo.....imacy
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:57 am
Another hypothetical: Let's say Canada and EU teamed up and made it known they'd do anything in their power to stop Trump from being reelected.

If you hate Trump, would that be a bad thing? They're stopping a terrible person from being POTUS.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 10:01 am
Jeanette wrote:
Another hypothetical: Let's say Canada and EU teamed up and made it known they'd do anything in their power to stop Trump from being reelected.

If you hate Trump, would that be a bad thing? They're stopping a terrible person from being POTUS.


Yes, it would be a bad thing. America does not need to be saved by foreign governments. If they do this **** now, they'll do it again and it will happen to a president you love.

This is quite literally undermining a democracy or republic by foreign and oftentimes hostile powers.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 10:24 am
On the theoretical question, only the most crazed partisans would agree that meddling is fine and they would lose that opinion very, very quickly were the shoe on the other foot.

This is why any foreign government would try to hide what they're doing. In the article I posted upthread about NGO's it describes how fringe elements get more money and PR than their portion in the electorate. This creates a sense that Israelis are against policy XYZ rather than NGO sponsored fringe group is against policy XYZ.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 11:34 am
There are only two ways I can understand Republican apathy in the face of Russian meddling, especially with such clear evidence that Trump favors Putin foreign policy goals.

1. It's okay because it benefits them
2. US interests are better served by becoming closer to Putin/Russia.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 3:34 pm
Jeanette wrote:
There are only two ways I can understand Republican apathy in the face of Russian meddling, especially with such clear evidence that Trump favors Putin foreign policy goals.

1. It's okay because it benefits them
2. US interests are better served by becoming closer to Putin/Russia.


3. There was never substantial meddling that went beyond the regular lobbying that many foreign govs perform on promising candidates.

I don't think that Trump favors Putin at all. He bombed Syrian airbases, spoke about increased arm flow to Kiev, etc.
If anything, Obama was very flexible with Putin and didn't choose to disclose any Russian cybersecurity threats during the elections. And remember Hillary's cringeworthy reset button when she was SOS?
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 3:56 pm
gingertop wrote:
3. There was never substantial meddling that went beyond the regular lobbying that many foreign govs perform on promising candidates.

I don't think that Trump favors Putin at all. He bombed Syrian airbases, spoke about increased arm flow to Kiev, etc.
If anything, Obama was very flexible with Putin and didn't choose to disclose any Russian cybersecurity threats during the elections. And remember Hillary's cringeworthy reset button when she was SOS?


Obama tried to sound the alarm but was strongarmed by Mitch McConnell into staying silent. Unfortunately he and James Comey fell into the same trap of treating Hillary's election as a done deal. Many democrats feel Obama should have been more forceful.

Okay, I get it. Russian meddling WOULD be a problem theoretically, but since it didn't happen, as Trump constantly assures us, we don't have to worry about it.

What are your thoughts on Trump demanding Putin be let back into G8? Floating the withdrawal of US from NATO? Insisting that Crimea should belong to Russia because "they mostly speak Russian there"?

Explain how moving closer to Putin and away from Canada/EU serves American interests.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 4:13 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Obama tried to sound the alarm but was strongarmed by Mitch McConnell into staying silent.


Never heard this? Why would McConnell do that and why would Obama listen?
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 4:18 pm
As for the rest of you points, especially about Crimeans 'speaking Russian", I don't think that Trump is anti Russia and I don't think that he is uniquely pro Russia.
I think he is strange old man with weird political beliefs and instincts, coupled with a bad case of verbal diarrhea.

He sometimes changes his mind six times within one day and he has some remarkably long running ideas as well: he's anti free trade, anti Muslim and Mexican, and anti intervention.

I do think some of his associates may have had improper discussions with Russian counterparts. I do think this should be investigated. I don't think that the election was effected by the meddling and I don't think Donald Trump was effected by it.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 4:20 pm
Obama was afraid of being accused of being too partisan and tilting the election to Clinton.

It's not in Breitbart, the only credible source in journalism, but here is what politico reported:

https://www.politico.com/story.....59531
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 4:23 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Obama was afraid of being accused of being too partisan and tilting the election to Clinton.

It's not in Breitbart, the only credible source in journalism, but here is what politico reported:

https://www.politico.com/story.....59531

I don't read Breitbart but ok. This is is interesting although McConnell's team disputes Biden's allegation. Will try to read up more about this to understand what happened.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 4:37 pm
gingertop wrote:
As for the rest of you points, especially about Crimeans 'speaking Russian", I don't think that Trump is anti Russia and I don't think that he is uniquely pro Russia.
I think he is strange old man with weird political beliefs and instincts, coupled with a bad case of verbal diarrhea.

He sometimes changes his mind six times within one day and he has some remarkably long running ideas as well: he's anti free trade, anti Muslim and Mexican, and anti intervention.

I do think some of his associates may have had improper discussions with Russian counterparts. I do think this should be investigated. I don't think that the election was effected by the meddling and I don't think Donald Trump was effected by it.


Well good to know our safety and security are in the hands of a strange old man with weird political beliefs and instincts! At least he isn't beholden to Russia--whew!

Imagine if he had hidden business dealings with Russia. That might be bad.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:06 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Well good to know our safety and security are in the hands of a strange old man with weird political beliefs and instincts! At least he isn't beholden to Russia--whew!

Imagine if he had hidden business dealings with Russia. That might be bad.


I agree that Donald Trump is not the greatest president. Your hypothetical was about Russian meddling and I'm just saying that many of his supporters and people in the middle do not think that Russian interference was what tilted the scales.

I didn't end up voting in this election because I was conflicted down to the last moment and I would have had to send in an absentee ballot in advance. But what made me almost vote for him was supreme court picks and that there would be an oppositional media. It wasn't from stupid facebook and twitter memes by Russian bots.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:08 pm
I hear you. I've wondered if Trump:Russia::Obama:Iran.
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anon for this




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:18 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I hear you. I've wondered if Trump:Russia::Obama:Iran.


What exactly are the parallels here? Do you think that Iran interfered in the US elections in an attempt to elect Obama? Do you think that Obama made millions of dollars in his family business from Iranian oligarchs? Did Obama, or his close advisers, arrange with Iran to obtain and reveal compromising information about his opponents? Did Iran buy Facebook ads discouraging people from voting for Obama's opponents?

Are there rumors about a tape showing Obama cavorting with Iranian women of loose virtue and indulging in "water sports"?


Last edited by anon for this on Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:19 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Well good to know our safety and security are in the hands of a strange old man with weird political beliefs and instincts! At least he isn't beholden to Russia--whew!

Imagine if he had hidden business dealings with Russia. That might be bad.


Yeah. Good thing he released his tax returns, as promised. And put all of his assets in a blind trust.

But in any case, as far as I know, there's not question Russia meddled in the election, and tried to sway it to Trump. The only question is whether anyone in Trump's camp colluded.
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gingertop




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jun 28 2018, 5:28 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I hear you. I've wondered if Trump:Russia::Obama:Iran.


Obama is an ideologue. Trump, although he has some long-lasting convictions, is more of a pragmatist. I don't see him doing an Iran deal kind of operation.

Obama is probably a better human being than Trump. But Trump's policies are thus far more in line with what I want to see. Many of those policies fail or never get past his twitter rantings and that's also fine.
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