Where would we fit in?

amother

Magenta

Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:53 pm

I will preface by saying that I have searched the forum but haven't found any recent threads with the same request.
We are planning to make aliya within the next couple of years. I don't know where we will fit in.
I would say we are JPF, my husband works and wears colored shirts, I cover all hair and knees/collarbones/elbows. I have no problem wearing stockings full time too.
I could say we are yeshivish but we don't associate with any yeshiva and I don't believe in long term kollel lifestyle. We are both college educated professionals and appreciate a high level of both kodesh and chol for our kids.

I feel like schools are going to be a defining point of where we should go. I don't know about my younger kids, but my oldest boy is gifted and I would like a school with both strong kodesh and chol. We live in a very OOT place with very few Jewish activities, so our kids are not very sheltered - we show videos and they read books, both fiction and science/facts.

We live in Europe so we are not really Anglos, but I don't mind living among them.

Does anyone have a clue where in Israel could I find a good school for him - in the north or center of the country? And if there are matching girl schools there too?

Cheiny

Wed, Sep 05 2018, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

Har nof? English speaking and different types.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:12 am

IMO, you need to think which hashkafah you identify most with - charedi or chardal or DL (dati leumi). In Israel, a main factor to your hashkafah is the outlook towards army service.

charedi education = most boys yeshivot encourage kollel after graduation but there are a few that encourage boys (mainly those who can't sit and learn) to go out to work. Army, even religious units, are not encouraged. The Beis Yakov encourages the girls to be kollel supporting wives.
Although there certainly are smart phones and filtered internet in the charedi community, those two things are very discouraged by the schools. TV/movies are also not acceptable. Colored shirts are a no-no for men.
The "leader" of the Litvish Ashkenazi charedi world is Rav Kanievsky, and the charedi community usually abides to whatever psakim he releases (this is a generalization...obviously not everyone listens but daas Torah is a big thing in charedi circles).
It seems the charedi "world" is split into ashkenazim, sefardim, and chassidim so each community will have some variations.

chardal - no issue with colored shirts for men, women do dress tznius and often do wear socks/stockings, most families do not have TVs at home but do have internet and/or limited movies they allow, girls usually do sherut leumi (that's volunteer work instead of the army) after HS - charedi girls do not do this, and boys usually do a hesder program after HS (hesder means part time yeshiva part time army and units are male-only). Secular influence and studies are limited but not as limited as charedi influences and most do go out to work in a professional field after the army/hesder.
Rav Shmuel Eliyahu shlita, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Melamed are some of the leaders of this group. Though daas Torah is not as strict as in the charedi world.

DL - modern orthodox, very involved in the secular world and secular studies, very pro serving in the army, do watch movies, no dress code for men, tznius for women is more lax than the above two circles - women do not wear stockings, and depending on the community some partially cover hair, some wear short sleeves, show collarbone, etc.

salt

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:38 am

Cheiny wrote:

Har nof? English speaking and different types.

Har Nof is not really different types. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think many of the boys who live in Har Nof go to high school with good limudei chol - they would go to yeshivot ketanot. Obviously there are a few exceptions, but I wouldn't exactly call it a mixture.

I would say somewhere like Ramat Beit Shemesh is more suitable.

Rappel

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:48 am

amother wrote:

chardal - no issue with colored shirts for men, women do dress tznius and often do wear socks/stockings, most families do not have TVs at home but do have internet and/or limited movies they allow, girls usually do sherut leumi (that's volunteer work instead of the army) after HS - charedi girls do not do this, and boys usually do a hesder program after HS (hesder means part time yeshiva part time army and units are male-only). Secular influence and studies are limited but not as limited as charedi influences and most do go out to work in a professional field after th
Rav Shmuel Eliyahu shlita, Rav Shlomo Aviner, Rav Melamed are some of the leaders of this group. Though daas Torah is not as strict as in the charedi world.

I think you're confusing chardal with Dati Leumi Torani. Israelis don't identify themselves as chardal. it's a purely chutznik label for people who live among the yeshivish, and support the state/army. The followers of the rabbanim you listed above would more likely self-identify as "Torani" and/or "Mamlachti."

That being said, you've done an excellent job here defining a Torani lifestyle, and by the OPs self-description, she'd probably fit in nicely in a Torani community.

As for recommendations: I personally feel that the number 1 factor which creates a successful Aliyah is having a lot of community support. I found that in the yishuvim, and I would strongly recommend Kochav Hashahar to a new oleh. It's close to Jerusalem, beautiful, inexpensive, and has a thriving and growing community. They've also done a great job creating sub-communities in the larger whole, so every neighborhood is really close knit. You can't fall between the cracks there. There are many international families who live there, but the language in the street is still Hebrew. It's also very close to Yerushalayim, if you need anything from the city.

etky

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:40 am

Rappel wrote:

I don't know the terms that the followers of these rabbis use to self-identify but in the DL and circles that I am familiar with (Israeli - not chutznik) and in the media that they generate and consume, this stream is certainly labelled Chardal. Torani is somewhat vaguer - usually used to imply a hashkafa or lifestyle that is more RW but still within the DL, rather than Chardal camp.

Rappel

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 4:16 am

etky wrote:

I think our differing views just highlights how fluid these labels are. Smile

I think you touched on an important point there: the central divider between chardal and Torani is which larger umbrella they stand under. Chardal associate with charedi, while Torani associate with Dati Leumi, and that seems to be the root of the small differences between them.

It's funny how different our experiences are. We used to live on the hilltop next to Kochav Hashahar, and recently we moved to Itamar.

Where do you hang your hat?

etky

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 4:33 am

Rappel wrote:

I think our differing views just highlights how fluid these labels are. Smile

Efrat.
I understand that Rav Melamed (who we had the honor of hosting in our yishuv and Beit Knesset this summer), for example, does not identify with the chardal label and describes his stream as Torani. I have no issue with that at all - people have the right to choose their own labels. Just pointing out that others- from the outside looking in- from the DL camp and from the secular world (those who actually know enough to differentiate and don't just lump all Orthodox together) will use the term chardal to depict Rav Melamed, Rav Aviner, Rav Lior etc. It's not a chutznik term at all.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 5:31 am

I have heard the term "chardal" used among Israelis.
In my view (and again, just my opinion, perhaps I am wrong) the Rabbis belonging to the pro-army camp who wear black hats identify more with the chardal hashkafah, whereas the Rabbis who wear knitted kippot without a black hat on top identify more with the Torani or DL community.

Also, another thing I forgot to mention to the OP - none of these groups hashkafot are set in stone. It really depends on the community and if you live in a city, moshav, or yishuv. A charedi or chardal or DL community in Jerusalem will be different from a chareid/chardal/DL moshav. Northern, Southern, or Central Israel also changes the picture a bit.

Ideally, it is best to do research about different community/kehillas you might be interested in and then come for a pilot visit, visit the shuls, schools, etc. in that community and get an idea of which place suits you best.

Aylat

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 8:09 am

essie14 wrote:

If you want to live on a yishuv, I would suggest Mevo Horon (near Modiin, center of the country) or Mitzpe Yericho (past Maale Adumim, easy commute to Jerusalem). Both are Torani, you will feel comfortable the way you dress. Mainly Israelis but enough Olim that you will have a support system.

https://www.nbn.org.il/aliyahp.....oron/

https://www.nbn.org.il/aliyahp.....icho/

OP, I live in Mevo Choron and from your post was wondering if you would find it suitable. You can pm me if you want info about it.
(Will delete this post after OP has seen it bec of identifying info.)

There are actually a few yishuvim in the Modiin area you might be interested in. It's a convenient area location wise.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:32 pm

Thank you all for the explanations/ ideas!

Army is a touchy subject for me. I have boys. I need to warm up to this idea because as of now I am scared. Also, I am personally not against, but my husband might be. We haven't talked that much about it.

Do I need a car if I live in Mevo Choron or Shiloh? ALso are they in actual Israel or the territories? (I apologize I am very bad at politics/ Israeli geography).

Aylat

Sun, Sep 09 2018, 9:56 am

amother wrote:

Mevo Choron has poor public transport, most people have a car. It's 'on' the Green Line, probably technically considered a settlement but is in a safe area, and very near Modiin which is a big established city.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Sep 12 2018, 3:25 am

IT seems to me that before you do this, you need to figure out your stance on Zionism/State of Israel. Do you see it as having religious value, this making army service, etc., a mitzvah? The the Torani community can work for you. If not, then you need to stay around the Chareidi community. There are more modern chareidim; maybe you would fit in there. Ramat Beit Shemesh could work for you.
I have a friend who seemed Torani, but could not fit in to the community because she sees the State of Israel as a fact on the ground to be dealt with, but not as having religious value. She ended up in the modern chareidi community. (Her husband does wear white shirts now.)