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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 10:56 am
Would someone please explain without ranting and giving examples of what conservatives also do why democrats accept and embrace the following on Dr Mom's list as a good strategy to win over the hearts and minds of Americans?

DrMom wrote:
I think there is ample proof that the far Left, which is gradually taking over academia and the Democratic party, is unhinged.

But the article cited by the OP probably isn't the best piece of evidence for this.

Instead, one could point to:

- Attacks on Republicans while they are going out to eat with their families.
- The bizarre rhetoric of Maxine Waters, who encouraged behavior such as the above.
- Thousands of women marching around with genitalia-shaped hats
- Ashley Judd's strange "Nasty Woman" rant
- The shrieking triggered girl at Yale who verbally abused a tenured professor because his wife thought people should lighten up about Halloween costumes
- The hostile takeover of Evergreen College by radical leftists, who threatened Prof Brett Weinstein for teaching on a day when they wanted White people to be barred from campus, and their subsequent taking hostage of the college president
- The embrace by the mainstream Democratic Party of Alexandria Occasio Cortez and Linda Sarsour
- The constant trigger warnings and strict rules against "microaggressions" on college campuses
- A comedienne (?) holding up a mock bloody decapitated head of our POTUS
- The almost de rigeur banning or physical violence toward Conservative speakers on college campuses (Milo Yiannopolis, Ben Shapiro, Laura Southern, Dave Rubin, Charles Murray, Ann Coulter)
- The obsessions with race and gender
- The constant hyperbole and throwing around of the terms "Nazi" and "Hitler" and "white supremacist" and sexist-racist-xenophobe-Islamophobe."


Please feel free to give your own examples of what is going on with the liberals. I can't understand the why of it. If someone can explain the why and the benefit that would be great.

How did we get to this point? If someone were teaching a couse on Contemporary American Politics, how would you explain to your class why it is good to come across as unhinged?
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simcha2









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:02 am
I don't have time to write a full answer, but if someone wrote a second list about the right ( in which the far right and all Republicans are equated) , peodephile candidates, president "grabbing puss***", candidates who run nazi websites, Alex Jones etc. Etc.

Would you take it seriously?
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:11 am
simcha2 wrote:
I don't have time to write a full answer, but if someone wrote a second list about the right ( in which the far right and all Republicans are equated) , peodephile candidates, president "grabbing puss***", candidates who run nazi websites, Alex Jones etc. Etc.

Would you take it seriously?


That isn't what I am asking. That would be a different module in Contemporary American Politics.

I could answer your question. I can't answer my question. And I would take the question seriously if someone was looking for an answer.
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simcha2









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:19 am
It's the same question. Honestly, the right comes across as unhinged, hypocritical and immoral. So does the Left.

The point is, why aren't we self aware enough to know it?
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Deep









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:19 am
This is a great read.
https://www.psychologytoday.co.....-extremism
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:22 am
simcha2 wrote:
It's the same question. Honestly, the right comes across as unhinged, hypocritical and immoral. So does the Left.

The point is, why aren't we self aware enough to know it?


You obviously are not going to address my question. I specifically and respectfully asked not to give conservative examples. I don't want this to turn into a tit for that, your guy is crazier than mine, debate.
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simcha2









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:26 am
Squishy wrote:
You obviously are not going to address my question. I specifically and respectfully asked not to give conservative examples. I don't want this to turn into a tit for that, your guy is crazier than mine, debate.


That wasn't what I was doing. I was pointing out that your examples aren't taken seriously but those on the left, because they are not seen as real examples of what they believe. The same way my examples aren't taken seriously by Republicans as representing their beliefs.

I was pointing out that no one thinks they are unhinged.

I am asking you to turn the same spotlight on yourself and answer the same question you are posing.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:27 am
Deep wrote:
This is a great read.
https://www.psychologytoday.co.....-extremism


Thank you. That is interesting.

It isn't quite answering my question, but it is a great start.
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shyshira









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:37 am
I think your question is a non-starter Squishy.

I don't think that the majority of things on your list are items that Democrats are using as "good strategy to win over the hearts and minds of Americans". I don't think there is a group of strategists plotting this all out in the background - resulting in what you've seen. Do you?
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:42 am
simcha2 wrote:
That wasn't what I was doing. I was pointing out that your examples aren't taken seriously but those on the left, because they are not seen as real examples of what they believe. The same way my examples aren't taken seriously by Republicans as representing their beliefs.

I was pointing out that no one thinks they are unhinged.

I am asking you to turn the same spotlight on yourself and answer the same question you are posing.


Maybe you will stop trying to derail this if I answer.

I am not extreme in the slightest. If Trump lost, I would not wear genitalia on my head. I wouldn't scream at the sky and threaten to move out of the US. I wouldn't not respect others' rights to speech. I wouldn't riot or cry. I don't endorse trampling on people's rights.

When feminists decided to expose themselves scream out their v!gin!as, I couldn't identify as a anymore as a feminist. I rather have my dignity.

Maybe this will explain what I am seeking. When the inner city blacks riot they burn down their own homes and neighborhoods. You would start giving me examples of other riots without explaining that they burn down their homes to get firemen on their turf to attack them.

Please answer my question, or stop trying to derail this thead.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:42 am
Squishy wrote:
That isn't what I am asking. That would be a different module in Contemporary American Politics.

I could answer your question. I can't answer my question. And I would take the question seriously if someone was looking for an answer.


Of course it is. Because you're discussing wingnuts. You want to conflate left wingnuts with all liberals, while at the same time disassociating not only with right wingnuts, but with an increasingly large percentage of all right wingers.
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Simple1









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 11:43 am
simcha2 wrote:
I don't have time to write a full answer, but if someone wrote a second list about the right ( in which the far right and all Republicans are equated) , peodephile candidates, president "grabbing puss***", candidates who run nazi websites, Alex Jones etc. Etc.

Would you take it seriously?


Those are not related to politics. Some of the politicians happen to have bad character. And that is not only confined to the right - it is found across the board among all types.

I happened to have been very very against Trump when he was elected. But at this point I tune out all the stuff the media says against him because they have taken it too far.
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simcha2









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:05 pm
Squishy wrote:
Maybe you will stop trying to derail this if I answer.

I am not extreme in the slightest. If Trump lost, I would not wear genitalia on my head. I wouldn't scream at the sky and threaten to move out of the US. I wouldn't not respect others' rights to speech. I wouldn't riot or cry. I don't endorse trampling on people's rights.

When feminists decided to expose themselves scream out their v!gin!as, I couldn't identify as a anymore as a feminist. I rather have my dignity.

Maybe this will explain what I am seeking. When the inner city blacks riot they burn down their own homes and neighborhoods. You would start giving me examples of other riots without explaining that they burn down their homes to get firemen on their turf to attack them.

Please answer my question, or stop trying to derail this thead.


I'm not trying to derail the thread, I'm trying very hard to answer you. You don't want to hear my answer.

If you are trying to ask why people, not politicians, act the way they do. In ways that you think are irrational, I would answer the same, just because you don't share their opinions doesn't make them irrational. In the same way, when people on the right don't do many things that seem completely irrational that on the left.

It is a failure of understanding.

You don't want to hear what I have to say. That doesn't mean I'm not trying my hardest to answer you.
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Squishy









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:07 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Of course it is. Because you're discussing wingnuts. You want to conflate left wingnuts with all liberals, while at the same time disassociating not only with right wingnuts, but with an increasingly large percentage of all right wingers.


Ok. There are wingnuts in both major parties.

But it seems there are much more of these wingnuts in the Democrat party. The sheer numbers of the rioters and marchers is disconcerting and doesn't seem to be confined to the wings.

You bring up your feed in other threads. My feed is full of criticism of Trump and his supporters and positive coverage of the democratic wingnuts. I should be having the opposite feed.

Maybe the sheer amount of attention the media gives to the liberals trying to promote their agenda magnifies the approval of their antics. I don't know. I am looking for an explanation.
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Jeanette









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:10 pm
I'm going to take a chance here and respond just in case there are a few people interested in having a good faith discussion on the topic.

Yes, in every group there will be extremists, crazies, weirdos. There are people that I share one or two opinions with and disagree on everything else. There are people that I agree on about 90% of things but disagree with on politics. That's life and part of adulthood is learning how to live with people we disagree with.

But--and this is a big but--I have different standards for elected officials. If someone wants to protest and rant and rave in ways I find ineffectual or silly, they're exercising their free speech rights and at the end of the day it doesn't affect my life. The same is true for celebrities, athletes or comedians. I can like or dislike what they say or how they say it, but they dont have power over me.

But an elected official is supposed to be looking out for our interests. They're supposed to leave politics at the door and focus on what's good for their constituents. When elected officials consistently lie to us or act corruptly, that affects all of our lives and I will call that out. I dont care which party it comes from. If you are an apologist for lies and corruption, I will call you out too, I don't care which party you belong to.

Race rioting is wrong and illegal and bad. Non violent peaceful protest, organization and voting? That's the American way.
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causemommysaid









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:12 pm
The left and the right have gone crazy on both ends. One side is vag!na screaming snowflakes and the other is KKK rednecks.

Both have the same problem. They have lost their minds, respect, and frankly most normal people don't associate themselves with either.
I don't see why we can't have some normal middle of the road leftists who don't see micro aggressions at every turn and can accept someone who doesn't want to bake a gay wedding cake and in turn conservatives who see the need at times for abortion and agrees that the police force is biased against blacks.
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shyshira









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:19 pm
causemommysaid wrote:
The left and the right have gone crazy on both ends. One side is vag!na screaming snowflakes and the other is KKK rednecks.

Both have the same problem. They have lost their minds, respect, and frankly most normal people don't associate themselves with either.
I don't see why we can't have some normal middle of the road leftists who don't see micro aggressions at every turn and can accept someone who doesn't want to bake a gay wedding cake and in turn conservatives who see the need at times for abortion and agrees that the police force is biased against blacks.


You can, and there are.

But normal middle of the road type don't attract attention.
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Miri7









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 12:32 pm
Like others have said, you picked more extreme examples - most Democrats don’t see the items on your list as the way to enact change and win the hearts and mundane of voters.

Most democrats are focused on getting out the vote efforts, and a good many are concerned that the more far-left candidates who won primaries will be weaker in general elections. (It isn’t uncommon in either party for more extreme candidates to win primaries). Most liberals, like me, are focused on specific issues and work hard to contact representatives, or enact change at the state level about deregulation, immigration, family separation, climate change, health care, etc.

So my answer to your question is - they don’t.
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Fox









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 1:02 pm
Squishy wrote:
Would someone please explain without ranting and giving examples of what conservatives also do why democrats accept and embrace the following on Dr Mom's list as a good strategy to win over the hearts and minds of Americans?

Interesting question.

The Flyover Country Problem
One answer is that much of the left (to distinguish it from Democrats, many of whom, particularly at the level of local politics, are not leftists) is largely concentrated in coastal urban enclaves and has virtually no interaction with the rest of the country. They are genuinely perplexed as to why people don't see the world as they do, and they can't begin to figure out what might be in the hearts and minds of Americans outside their geographic and cultural area.

Despite claiming sophistication, they are actually very provincial. They know people whose skin colors may differ, but those people come from a very narrow range of backgrounds and experiences. They are surrounded by people who have similar jobs and similar educations.

This is the concept of the "cultural elite" that is the focus of so much rebellion. A poster in another thread mentioned Charles Murray and his book, Coming Apart. One of the most fascinating theses in the book is that college admission based on pure meritocracy has had a disturbing side effect: people marry partners whom they meet in college rather than people from their community, thus consolidating heiritable characteristics such as IQ. The long-term effect is to create a class division not on the basis of race or religion, but on the basis of being part of the liberal arts college-educated elite.

This was always President Obama's problem. When he made comments about people "clinging" to guns or religion; when he told people manufacturing jobs weren't coming back . . . it wasn't just a matter of stating facts or opinions. Rather, he was outlining and endorsing a class division that many people think is ultimately damaging for any country.

"There's a Supply and Demand Problem With Bigotry"

That's one of my favorite quotes from British journalist Douglas Murray. Good people want positive change in the world. But what do you do when things are going, well, not so bad?

The truth is that many, many problems in the world have gotten much better. A child born today in the slums of Mumbai has the same life expectancy as a millionaire 100 years ago. There are fewer people living in abject poverty in the world; fewer people crippled by illiteracy; fewer people dying of preventable diseases. In short, while there's always room for improvement, virtually every measure of human well-being shows people almost everywhere are doing better than people 50 years ago.

If we look just at the U.S., we have eliminated racism to the point of electing a black President. We have increased the status of women to the point where they earn a higher percentage of college and advanced degrees. We have social safety nets that, if imperfect, prevent people from starving.

So what do you do if you are passionate about social justice and equality but there are no huge, pressing problems with easy solutions? You expand the definitions of what constitutes a "problem." Suddenly, feminism isn't about making sure that women have equal opportunities and are treated equally in the workplace or as consumers -- it's about fighting some amorphous evil called "the patriarchy." Suddenly, racial justice isn't about making sure that people have equal opportunities or even figuring our ways to help people who have been hurt by historic injustice -- it's calling people out on "microaggressions."

The Democratic Party, starting in the mid-60s, built a significant part of its platform on addressing various social problems. But the better these problems get, the less of a platform they constitute. And the social problems that still plague us are not easily fixed -- we can't pass a Voting Rights Act and solve the educational and economic problems of inner cities. We can't pass a Consumer Protection Act to prevent gender discrimination in lending and solve the problem of opioid addiction.

The Left Won
Related to the supply-and-demand explanation is that many of the goals of the left have actually been achieved -- and they're not sure what to do.

Gay marriage is the prototypical example. Every politician was opposed -- until he/she wasn't -- and there were votes and counter-votes and all kinds of screaming. Then SCOTUS ruled in favor of gay marriage and . . . everyone sat down. Except for the county clerk in Kentucky, there was virtually no blowback. Apparently nobody cared that much. People who objected on religious grounds still rejected gay marriage, but as the meme said, they weren't being forced to do it.

The same thing happened with gays in the military. After inching toward the issue with President Clinton's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, the military did a large study on attitudes of officers and enlisted personnel and discovered -- nobody cared. Everyone cared about military prowess, not what people did in their private lives.

Or if you want to look at issues closer to home, look at changes in the frum community: tolerance and acceptance of divorce and single parents; protecting children from abuse; helping special needs children and adults . . . you can argue that we aren't doing enough or doing it fast enough, but the attitudes today are not those of 30 years ago.

The left has been instrumental in bringing about many of the things that benefit all of us, and we should acknowledge that. At the same time, power corrupts. In the 1950s, tyranny in government and society came largely from the right. Today it comes largely from the left. Preventing the exchange of ideas is not a good look, historically speaking, but it's the look that the left has embraced. It would be great if the Democratic Party would draw a line in the sand against leftist tyranny, but I'm not holding my breath.
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aleph









  


Post  Thu, Sep 13 2018, 3:40 pm
I think that a general tendency toward both idealism and rebelliousness are developmental stages, which is why we see these radical movements so profoundly expressed on college campuses.

Add to those naturally occurring proclivities the self involvement and self assurance of youth coupled with extremely limited real life experience, in other words, the real hands-on experience which allows one to process the nuances and subtlety of the concept of "truth". Plus few real responsibilities and tons of free time. Parental support. A still developing prefrontal cortex. I could go on and on.

These kids are coming of age in an era in which many of the glaring issues of freedom and equality in America have been fought for and won by the generations before them.

Now there are countless wrongs to be righted, but thank g-d, they are no longer institutionalized, legalized wrongs, like slavery, or inequal voting rights, or segregated school systems. Our ancestors have fought those fights, famously and heroically, and we rightfully glorify them for it. What is left for this generation of idealists are the vestiges of past wrongs, like a sociological footprint, or wrongs perpetrated by individuals, not overall systems. Which is by definition, much more elusive and difficult to define. Some will experience it and others won't, depending on things like gender, race, socioeconomic status, luck, geography, etc.

What remains are the "microaggressions", or the rogue bigots or aggressors, and a bit of a "rebel without a cause syndrome".
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