BE A MENTSCH!! A rant/vent

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 2:09 am

amother wrote:

Your rant/vent isn't fair.

Out of curiosity, what do you want the restaurants to do? If they build the walkway too far into the street, they interfere with traffic. They can't do anything about cars parking where they are not supposed to. They need the sukkahs for parnosa. Customers need them as the men don't have a choice.

Do you really think a pizza store is able to maintain its business with ten customers a day max? I think you are not being realistic as they are next to a bus depot.

Chol homoed has 4 days. When do you want them to build their sukkahs? They can't always get workers at the last minute. It is a foolish businessman who doesn't plan to have his sukkah up in advance. Suppose there is a list minute snafu. He will lose customers and parnosa if that sukkah is not ready for customers the moment it is supposed to.

If sukkahs are such a problem for you, walk elsewhere.

My family used to own a bakery. My father got clearance from the city to cordon off the parking spots in front of the business and build a sukkah on that part of the street. So it is possible to find a middle ground, for the business owner to go a bit out of their way in order to both provide and sukkah and maintain useable sidewalks.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 6:37 am

amother wrote:

But it is not just a parnosa issue. It is an issue of everyone who needs a sukkah. I would rather the law is enforced to get rid of all the fire hazard sukkahs built on balconies than deprive the public from use of sukkahs.

It is awful to hear Jews anti-sukkah. Right now I am in a town that is anti-sukkah. Last year we had a choice of places to eat. Now there is one place, and we are eating in the rabbi's private sukkah at his house which isn't so close without access to bathrooms or a selection of restaurants.

The handful of kosher restaurants are forced to be closed this week. They never had a great business to begin with. Is this what you would prefer happens? Suppose they can't survive this week? Suppose their workers need steadier employment?

Be careful when you wish that Jews can't build sukkahs on sidewalks. At least where I am, it is the non--Jews who aren't tolerant of the religious needs of Jews.

Please explain why a restaurant would be forced to be closed during sukkos?

amother

Puce

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 7:37 am

watergirl wrote:

Please explain why a restaurant would be forced to be closed during sukkos?

It is self explanatory. There is no place for men and families with men to eat. The restaurants don't have enough business to remain open catering to women, girls, and small boys .

Last year, we had a choice of 4 restaurants. This year, we wanted to go to a place an hour away and made this town our base. There are no other kosher places in this county or the one we want to go to. Now we have one small place that doesn't even open until 11.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 7:51 am

amother wrote:

Its actually not self explanatory at all, and my asking was partly serious, partly tongue and cheek. There is this thing called TAKE OUT. Its amazing. You order what you want, the restaurant prepares it and packs it to go. Then you bring it home and eat it there. And you can eat it in your own sukkah. The places where you live dont have to-go containers? Weird.

Where I live, there are a number of restaurants but only one has a sukkah. And they all stay open over chol hamoed. No one is "forced" to close. If I want chinese, I get take out. If I want burgers, I get take out. You have to PLAN.

It sounds like people want to have their cake and eat it too. Everyone who is saying that we have to support local businesses by going there and eating in their sukkahs, despite the fact that they are built over public sidewalks (forcing people with strollers, wheelchairs, walkers, etc into the STREET, causing hardships because someone in a chair has to deal with a curb OVER AND OVER again) is quite misplaced sanctimony and self righteous. I wonder if these sukkahs are actually a mitzvah that comes from an aveira, to be honest.

Also, the things that you are mentioning in the post that I quoted have absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked, which was for you to explain to me why a restaurant is forced to close over sukkos. You are complaining about hours of operation, lack of choices for your trips, etc. If the issue is that the places where you want to go on a trip dont have a sukkah, there are plenty of solutions. People are creative. But there is no reason that a place MUST close or is FORCED to close.

anon for this

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 8:26 am

SimchaSays wrote:

People on imamother are also glad there are sukkahs and Jews celebrating openly. Just not blocking the streets to do it.

Yes, exactly.

I sympathize with eating establishments that would lose out on chol hamoed business without a succah, but the solution shouldn't be blocking the sidewalk for two to three weeks. That makes it impossible for someone using a walker or wheelchair to access that street for as long as the succah is up. Even if curb cuts aren't blocked, most people in walkers or wheelchairs wouldn't feel safe using the street.

I don't understand how it's even legal to block a sidewalk for an extended period of time without providing a safe sidewalk detour. In the US I'd think it would constitute an ADA violation as well.

Maybe a few businesses can build and share a larger succah that doesn't block the sidewalk.

amother

Puce

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 8:31 am

watergirl wrote:

We are hours from home, so takeout and eating in at our house are not an option. You can't jam a whole town and tourists comfortably in the rabbi's sukkah. That is creating other problems like residential parking and lack of bathroom access.

This whole thread is incredibly mean spirited and ugly. You are mean spirited not understanding that Jews want to travel with their families on yom tovim.

The hours of operation and lack of a choice are due to not being allowed a sukkah. There is no breakfast place open because the one breakfast place is not allowed a sukkah. Is that clear enough for you? I typed real slow, so you can understand why this is relevant.

Chol homoed is DH's only time to travel with the family. The kids are in school when he is off national holidays. Since he gets both Jewish and national holidays off already, he doesn't get extra vacation time. Many families are in the same predicament as us. We booked and paid for accommodations and didn't pack up food .

We found a lovely place that has 4 kosher restaurants. Can't you understand Jews wanting to enjoy it? Can't you understand the restaurants wanting and needing to be open during this time?

amother

Puce

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 8:37 am

anon for this wrote:

And where would this larger sukkah be in the city with space a premium? You can't have it too far from the restaurant because that isn't fair to us handicapped people. Besides, it seems to be able bodied people who are anti-sukkahs.

I don't see the ADA violation here. I see problems with the religious law if you limit the practice of religion and don't allow handicapped people access to nearby sukkahs.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 8:53 am

amother wrote:

Again, none of these reasons explain why a restaurant is FORCED TO CLOSE. They are choosing to close. I am mean spirited? Because I am saying that nothing is forcing a restaurant to close? Every restaurant can make its own choices. Like I said, people can take food to go and be creative to eat it. Thats mean spirited? Its a solution. No one is being forced to lose parnassa because of chol hamoed. No one. Thats mean spirited?

The breakfast place that you mentioned that is not open because they cant have a sukkah? Thats their choice to close. Their patrons can be creative. They can come up with solutions just like all of the other traveling yidden during this time.

Your husband's ability to travel with the family, families traveling in general, school being off, your accommodations, you not packing up food... none of that has anything to do with the one single issue that I am talking about which is your claim that restaurants are FORCED to close.

Again, where I live, only 1 of the restaurants has a sukkah and yet they all stay open.

Eta - I just reread my posts and I fail to see where I indicated not understanding why Jews want to travel with their families. You are conflating the issues here.

By the way, what I've put in bold from your post is against the forum rules. Say it under your screen name or dont say it.

Last edited by watergirl on Thu, Sep 27 2018, 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Rose

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 9:01 am

HOnestly I feel that it’s a tremendous chillul hashem. Why do we need to have sukkahs built two weeks early and block sidewalks and gutters? One shul where I live takes up the whole sidewalk and puts a barrier in the gutter to use as sidewalk. That in turn makes one and half lanes instead of two.

Just because your going on vacation doesn’t mean that the rest of the world has to be inconvenienced.

Also the restaurant sukkahs are usually small. Many times women can’t sit there and take up the space. So it’s not exactly like the family is going out together...

anon for this

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

I'm not sure if you are in the US. In my experience, most US cities have laws prohibiting blocking public sidewalks for extended periods of time. For example, if I don't clear the sidewalk in front of my home within 24 hours of a snowstorm, I am subject to a fine. Similar laws apply to businesses.

Beyond that, many cities provide curb cuts to make their sidewalks accessible to people using walkers or wheelchairs. I would guess that these cities would prohibit individuals or businesses from blocking the curb cuts for extended periods of time, since doing so can make it impossible for people to safely navigate the street.

With respect to limiting the practice of religion, the government does that all the time. I don't think succahs are required to be ADA compliant, since they are temporary. Placing a succah some distance from a restaurant wouldn't constitute an ADA violation in any case as long as the path between the restaurant and succah is accessible.

I don't know where a succah can be put in the location where you're visiting, since I'm not familiar with it. If none of the restaurants have a parking lot or other space they can use, then maybe they can rent part of a lot from another business.

I don't understand the particulars of your situation (for example, I'm not sure how you can access a succah if the sidewalk is blocked), but it sounds like you are having a difficult time. I hope your situation improves and that you are able to enjoy your y"t with your family.

amother

Puce

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 9:52 am

watergirl wrote:

It is very simple. No customers without a sukkah.

Why is that so hard to understand?

amother

Puce

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 10:00 am

amother wrote:

The shul or restaurant gets a permit to build the sukkah. They are allowed to block the sidewalk. Let the congregation enjoy kiddish together. Let men have a place to eat.

If you people are so anti-sukkah, then get elected to change the law, so that the Jewish religion does not have to be accommodated. Meanwhile use the paths provided or don't walk there.

amother

Gold

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

Op here. Ok, this thread was labeled a vent/rant which means that things will not be peaches and cream. This is meant for people to fairly vent about Something that’s been bothering them. It’s not fair to bash.
Please understand that we are in no way anti religion or sukkah bashing. Please. We’re just asking establishments to be considerate when making their sukkahs. Were not asking them to burn it or tear it down and neither are we reporting them! Instead, we turn to our sisters on imamother some of whom live in our neighborhood and we have a cleansing vent!
I'm noticing that we”re divided into two schools of thought and those of you who agree with me seem to be the ones who live in my neighborhood and have experienced what I’ve gone through on yom tov. Those of you in smaller communities appreciate every single sukkah, and that’s FINE! Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion based on their experiences. What were not entitled to is to get nastiness.

Btw, when we travel, we take along a pop up sukkah for the men. Problem solved.