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-> Working Women
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amother
Burgundy
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 Sat, Oct 06 2018, 5:56 pm
I grew up speaking freely to men without it been considered flirting. Now I work in a frum chasidish workplace with men. There's one man that loves chatting to us woman. He'll ask me what my plans are for Yom tov and he'll tell me what his plans are.
The woman in my place keep discussing how wrong it is and how he needs to be fired. Now to me he's a friendly curious man. He's never spoken anything dirty. Now how wrong is it that this man asks me about my home life on the surface? I feel the woman are over reacting. He'll chat to me the same way when I'm with my husband.
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little neshamala
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 6:35 pm
| amother wrote: | I grew up speaking freely to men without it been considered flirting. Now I work in a frum chasidish workplace with men. There's one man that loves chatting to us woman. He'll ask me what my plans are for Yom tov and he'll tell me what his plans are.
The woman in my place keep discussing how wrong it is and how he needs to be fired. Now to me he's a friendly curious man. He's never spoken anything dirty. Now how wrong is it that this man asks me about my home life on the surface? I feel the woman are over reacting. He'll chat to me the same way when I'm with my husband. |
If it really is just that then they are overreacting. I work in a large workplace with a lot of frum men and women and its quite common to chat in a friendly way about yom tov plans and what school you send your kids to, and if anyone has good chol hamoed ideas etc.
If one person starts sharing/asking about more personal things, or coming to vent about the boss and get some TLC etc then thats not necessarily flirting but it is dangerous territory and boundaries should be established.
Texting/whatsapping should be avoided at all costs but sometimes its necessary for work because thats just how its done, and in that case ONLY text and respond to work related messages.
Actual flirting is...well...flirting. behaving in a way to attract an opposite gender's interest in a more romantic nature. Inquiring about yomtov plans and boasting about how your mother in law makes the best potato kugel isnt flirting. Unless maybe youre wiggling as you say it 
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Boca00
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 7:13 pm
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Does he talk to the men in the office the same way and frequency as the women?
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zaq
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 7:31 pm
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Thing is, it all depends on the circles you’re in. I didn’t think chassidish men normally talked at all to women who are not their close blood relatives, except when necessary and la-inyan, such as about business matters. So for a Chassidish man to stam chat with a woman to no purpose, and especially about her personal life, might very well be considered flirting, whereas in other circles this is normal social interaction and wouldn’t raise questions of flirting absent other signs such as provocative body language or tone of voice, or singling out one woman to the exclusion of all others. (Not that some men might not flirt with all the women in the office; some people are that way.)
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zaq
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 7:37 pm
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OP, your question is odd: it sounds as if you want to know what would be considered flirting on YOUR part, not on his. It is entirely possible to have a conversation that is all flirtation on one side and none on the other, and I would think that whether or not the second party is flirting back would be fairly obvious to a spectator.
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amother
Tangerine
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 7:43 pm
a frum chasidish workplace environment would frown upon casual social interactions between genders -- its really not the norm
and while flirting can be more overt it can also be an issue to cultivate familiarity or emotional connection
why not stick to the women and be cool to him or another man chatting you up
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OOTforlife
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Sat, Oct 06 2018, 7:49 pm
There's no single definition of flirting, it totally depends on the culture you're in. If someone is knowingly and deliberately pushing the boundaries of socially acceptable non-romantic interaction in the surrounding culture, then there is a good chance they are making an overture of sorts. If you respond in kind, they will interpret that as interest and may up the ante gradually, or may be content to stop at flirting.
But if someone is exceeding the boundaries of the surrounding culture because they don't know any better and are oblivious to the surrounding norms, that doesn't mean anything and shouldn't be interpreted as flirting.
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Zeleze
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:33 am
I am thinking that the Halochos of YICHUD are just for these reason's, how long could a male and fermale that sit and work together keep strong without crossing lines, no matter whatever level of Yiddishkeir they both are.
That's life and out Yetzer Horah, so another reason that I work in a women's only office ALWAYS
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moonstone
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:52 am
They think he should be fired for being friendly??? That's terrible. For crying out loud, it sounds like he's just a chatty guy making conversation. It doesn't sound like he's being flirty. (and even if he was flirting, that's no reason to fire someone!)
I work with many men and have male friends, joke around and chat with them- there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind about anything more ever happening! It IS possible for men and women to innocently chat. I'm sure it's even possible in the chassidish world!
Reading these types of threads is so upsetting.
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amother
Burgundy
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 3:26 am
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That's why I'm so frustrated, I work with a classmate of mine who thinks shes gotta be my mashgiach. Every time the guy talks to me she'll approach me after to tell me how wrong I am for chatting casually to him. She hasn't stopped telling me how all the woman think he's mad and should be fired. I'm bH very happy with dH and dH is a lot smarter than this guy. The problem is these woman have boring husband's that don't take that much interest in them. This guy walks in he s good looking and takes interest in your life and these woman get all excited and wooops it's Flirting!!!! Soo narrow minded and annoying! The first day I thought he was flirting and as soon as I got to know him I realised how innocent he is.
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amother
Seafoam
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 4:13 am
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I used to work with a boss who wasn't ever flirting but was a chatty type....we would know when he has to go pick up his wife to take her to his dgtr school perfomance.....we would know when he had overseas guests in his house.....So I would answer cold & pareve like very nice & cut the conversation, just as precaution it shouldn't go any further. If he offered to get me lunch when he went out to buy for himself, I didnt accept the offer....because this is how things start....he just wants to be nice but then the recipient feels good that the boss is bringing her lunch....You need to keep your distance with other gender in workplace to avoid anything going any further. Best is to keep conversations only to the business matters.
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Seas
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 6:27 am
There is always a base motive. One cannot just overcome the Yetzer Hora (and basic biology).
As an aside, the issur, as per SA, for men and women to mingle or chat, is standalone. That is to say it isn't in order to guard against things going to the next level, but just mingling of the genders is ossur.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 6:46 am
| amother wrote: | | That's why I'm so frustrated, I work with a classmate of mine who thinks shes gotta be my mashgiach. Every time the guy talks to me she'll approach me after to tell me how wrong I am for chatting casually to him. She hasn't stopped telling me how all the woman think he's mad and should be fired. I'm bH very happy with dH and dH is a lot smarter than this guy. The problem is these woman have boring husband's that don't take that much interest in them. This guy walks in he s good looking and takes interest in your life and these woman get all excited and wooops it's Flirting!!!! Soo narrow minded and annoying! The first day I thought he was flirting and as soon as I got to know him I realised how innocent he is. |
I'm with zaq on this. In the Chassidish world this may be considered flirting, even if in your world it's not. So that's what your coworkers may be trying to tell you -- that he's flirting with YOU. Even if you're not.
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amother
Tangerine
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 6:53 am
Dear Op
He is good looking and takes an interest in the women's lives? "He loves chatting with us women"?
and the women get all excited and think he's flirting?
and this is a frum chasidism environment?
***Yeah so assuming he is not from outer space and knows the social norms, yes he is definitely pushing the boundaries call it flirting or skirting with trouble.***
Your friend sounds like a true friend indeed. Sometimes we need a friend to see from the outside how not okay something looks. Though it seems the more she tells you the more you are digging in to prove it okay.
its not determined by how happy you are with DH or how not happy someone else is
who knows what he is getting out of it or wants or whether he is just feeding off the vibe -- ugh -- but innocent methinks not -- and even if it is its still not okay given the context.
sorry but given the cultural norms of your workplace you are not doing yourself or the others any favors to "normalize" his behavior -- for whatever the reason
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amother
Pink
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:02 am
I don't usually agree with Seas, but she's right on this one.
Men will flirt if you make even a split second of eye contact, or breathe in their direction. As long as you have a pulse, they are going to be interested.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:14 am
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Discussing anything unrelated to work.
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Maya
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:22 am
| zaq wrote: | | Thing is, it all depends on the circles you’re in. I didn’t think chassidish men normally talked at all to women who are not their close blood relatives, except when necessary and la-inyan, such as about business matters. So for a Chassidish man to stam chat with a woman to no purpose, and especially about her personal life, might very well be considered flirting, whereas in other circles this is normal social interaction and wouldn’t raise questions of flirting absent other signs such as provocative body language or tone of voice, or singling out one woman to the exclusion of all others. (Not that some men might not flirt with all the women in the office; some people are that way.) |
This.
BUT, it’s possible that the man knows it’s permissible for this woman to chat with him, and he may be doing just that. Chatting lightly with a woman who’s allowed to speak to him, without any other underlying motives.
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mommy3b2c
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:35 am
| amother wrote: | I don't usually agree with Seas, but she's right on this one.
Men will flirt if you make even a split second of eye contact, or breathe in their direction. As long as you have a pulse, they are going to be interested. |
Lol
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thunderstorm
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:36 am
OP, in the offices that I've worked at with Chasidish men there were different types of boundaries taken.
One guy didn't use the main entrance because there was a desk on either side of the door and women sitting at each desk. He didn't want to walk between two women and therefore walked all the way around the building in order to get into the office each day.
He also didn't wear his glasses so that he couldn't see who he was talking to. He was on a really high level of watching himself.
Another person would say Good Morning with a smile, Good Evening and Good Shabbos etc. always in a friendly fashion.
Otherwise , all conversation was only about work.
A different guy, didn't even say hello . I found that a bit rude but eventually I think the non Jewish female employees said something to him about him being rude and after that he would mumble a "Good Morning".
One time I asked him if "so and so" was his sister . He answered "yes" but would not continue that conversation. And I realized I was wrong by even asking him that personal question .
In another place the man did not look me directly in the eye ever, while having a meeting or conversation about work and it made me feel uncomfortable. But I realized that's how he was when speaking to women.
Another Chasidish guy I worked with would discuss the weather , a blackout that just happened, or a local news story . But he kept it short and otherwise never discussed anything about family or personal matters .
In all workplaces , I was never called by my first name that I'm called by family or friends. I do use my legal name in the workplace and not my Jewish name. So some guys called me by my workplace name . Otherwise I was always addressed as "Mrs.So and So"
I don't think it's your coworkers place to tell you how to run your life and how frum you should be. But I do think that too much talking or even talk about family, kids and how you are going to spend Yom Tov , is usually more than you should be discussing with your male workers.
Some people work on themselves more and are more sensitive to this than others . You can still be a mentch and be cordial without it breaching boundaries and possibly Halacha as well.
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amother
Tangerine
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Sun, Oct 07 2018, 7:38 am
answering the thread topic:
yes as your co workers have already told you in a frum chasidish workplace it would be considered flirting for a woman to talk to a man like this
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