What's considered flirting with male workers?

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 11:11 am

I didn't make it clear but the workers are from chasidish families but this male worker is not and that's why I think he's not flirting cos in his crowd he's used to such interactions.
I personally think that every time he walks in and asks questions, its these chasidish woman that will ' wiggle ' awkwardly and make it into a scene. Whilst I and other normal people answer him directly.

Example in a meeting there was one woman that comes from a popular family. She turned to me and said "I was here the first at 10am and everyone rocks up late " he was listening from behind and piped up " yeah only family x come early to meetings and wonder why no one's here" I laughed and continued and this woman blushed and repeated the story to the whole work place as thou he had asked her to have s-x Tongue Out

. . I later heard the story from a neighbour that heard it from someone who heard it from her,
Point is if u can't interact with men without calling it flirt LEAVE but don't make me sound bad when I happen to be the mature one.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 11:19 am

Zeleze wrote:

I am thinking that the Halochos of YICHUD are just for these reason's, how long could a male and fermale that sit and work together keep strong without crossing lines, no matter whatever level of Yiddishkeir they both are.

That's life and out Yetzer Horah, so another reason that I work in a women's only office ALWAYS

While I agree that working in an all-women office is the ideal, it definitely doesn't violate the laws of yichud to work in a mixed office.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 11:33 am

Forget about yicud. In a non Jewish office he would NOT be considered a flirt. He's a outgoing friendly man. He's not acting immoral. He never teases anyone inappropriately or says inappropriate comments. To this crowd of woman a human that is of male gender that talks anything is immoral and flirting . He is constantly bad mouthed and I've been bad mouthed as well cos I chat to him.
I had to travel for a bris out of town between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Before Rosh Hashanah he said to me see you back on Thursday so I said actually coming in late. So he asked why so I told him. One thing brought next till he figured he was a friend of my cousin in yeshiva. Now a woman overheard and she said when he asked you why your coming late you should've said I can't come in and stopped.!!
I dunno, honestly I'm confused. Maybe I need to change workplace. I feel a little harassed by my workmates.

Mommyg8

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 11:46 am

amother wrote:

Oh, that's completely different! Sure, I would chat about things (on surface things, not personal things) with frum male co workers. Some are more outgoing than others, but it's certainly not flirting.

zaq

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 1:07 pm

It does sound as if the culture in your workplace is not a good fit for you. Quitting your job may be an extreme reaction but if you feel really uncomfortable and aren’t able to change your attitude and behavior to fit the culture, that may be the only solution.

If the owner is not Chassidish and it’s just a couple of Chassidish women who are taking you to task, that’s a different story. They have no more right to chastise you for your interactions than you would have to chastise them for not interacting. However, if the company culture is Chassidish, then your casual intergender socializing is as disrespectful and as inappropriate as if you sashayed in to work in a low cut red satin minidress or had relations in the supply closet with your coworker. To them it is all the same thing.

The basic rule is “when in charediville, do as the charedim do.” Especially when the charedim are your employers. If you can’t or won’t do as the charedim do, then this is not the place for you, and you and they would both be happier if you found employment elsewhere.

mom4many

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:04 pm

I assume that you discussed this with your husband and he doesn't think anything of it.

I also assume, that if this guy's wife knew or saw her husband's behavior, she also wouldn't think anything of it.

Bottom line, you're not doing anything wrong, the only problem is that in the workplace that you both happen to be working, this is frowned upon. You do not have to leave your job for this, but perhaps you could be considerate about "how it looks" or how it's perceived by everyone else, and tone it down a little.

little neshamala

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:29 pm

amother wrote:

Hes not being inappropriate at all. Your coworkers are taking it too far

little neshamala

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

Ugh. Im very familiar with this kind of behavior...in my experience some chassidish/very yeshivish women who have had very little day to day interactions with men who are not family tend to get overexcited and have their antennae tuned in to wavelengths that dont even exist. I have witnessed so many conversations where women have repeated the blandest conversations with men as though they had a whole juicier meaning, and often turned a tiny dumb comment into the funniest thing of the century...

I always wondered though if the reason they put the man in question down as "inappropriate/flirty" was to make themselves feel better about themselves for even getting a little excited about the conversation.

Like "oh, im not blushing or interested in the conversation at all, im just repeating it and geting worked up because like, how dare he chat with us and makae a joke, thats just so inappropriate, ha ha let me tell Raizy what just happened"

thunderstorm

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:39 pm

Until I worked with other Chasidish women I was not aware of how careful they are in the work place. My coworkers kept saying that "this is assure and that is assur" etc. and it was all new to me.
One of my coworkers said that they learned Rabbi Shmuel Neiman's Sefer "Nine to Five" in highschool and they were taught how to interact in the work place according to Halacha.
I first felt very offended by these "do gooders" but then I decided to read the Sefer myself and I realized that there were things I had no idea were not appropriate. So even though many of us think conversing in the work place with the opposite gender is totally fine , I've discovered that it's not so simple. This was taught to me by my Chasidish co workers who also got very bent out of shape seeing a male and female coworker have a non work related conversation. So even though I come from a more open background and converse with other men. I learned to respect their sensitivity and I actually developed my own sensitivity after reading this Sefer.
It's a small thin book and a very easy read for anyone that is interested.
I think speaking lashon harah about the guy and trying to get him fired is either just as bad or worse for your coworkers to do, though.

Maya

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:46 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I also learned that book at school. The same teacher also insisted that it’s 100% assur to greet and say hello to a male UPS delivery guy when he brings packages to the office.

So I wouldn’t exactly say that the teachings in this book are within any scope of normal. They are radical and ridiculous, and only aim to serve a population that is so repressed that any word spoken to a woman by a man automatically means he wants to jump her.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:49 pm

Maya wrote:

The teacher who taught you the sefer is not the Rabbi who wrote it.

I've never read the book and also think her colleagues are being OTT though I don't really see the connection to other things this teacher taught you...

Maya

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 2:51 pm

amother wrote:

She came to that conclusion based on the teachings of the book.

Perhaps you should read it and see what it says before deciding that there isn’t any connection between the two.

thunderstorm

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 3:03 pm

Maya wrote:

Your teacher taught you wrong. I'm looking at the book in front of me, and under "Conversation" the first pointer says " A) It is permitted for a man to greet his female employees or co worker upon entering and exiting the office. He may say "Hello", "Good Evening", "Goodbye" or any other salutation customary in our society. Likewise he may wish Mazal Toc upon a simcha. However, it must not be expressed in a warm and amicable manner usually reserved for greeting a close friend"

amother

Jade

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 3:04 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

are there instructions for how a woman can greet a man?

Maya

Sun, Oct 07 2018, 3:19 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

That’s not the only thing she taught wrongly, obviously.
Whether she did or didn’t doesn’t detract from my opinion that the book is radical and unnecessarily hyper-sexualizes the workplace.