Were the imahos unfulfilled until they had children?

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:11 am

Didn’t want to hijack another thread, so I’m starting a new one.
So let’s discuss. The imahos didn’t have children right away. Some had to wait longer than others, and some never even got to know their kids. We’re their lives unfulfilled before they had kids? Can one have a fulfilling life without having kids? I believe the answer is that they were quite fulfilled, and life can be quite fulfilling without kids, and many time it can be unfulfilling with kids.

southernbubby

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:14 am

eema of 3 wrote:

Didn't Rochel Imeinu compare herself to a dead person or was that Chana?

Mommyg8

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:21 am

Definitely Rochel, maybe Chana as well - I'm trying to remember Rochels exact words - I remember Yaakovs answer התחת אלוקים אנוכי...

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:37 am

More recent, rebb Nechoma Leibowitz said she would give up all her work to have a child - definitely a strong enlightened woman

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:42 am

I understand that it’s devastating, especially since society put SO much emphasis on kids. But is impossible to be unfulfilled without having children? Is that really the only thing that fulfills us?

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:44 am

I'm trying to remember something I heard recently about Sarah, that as much as she wanted children she still lived a full life.
I would say that Imahos were fulfilled in that they used every day to the utmost to serve and connect with Hashem, true ba bayamim style. But they felt a void.

I believe it's the Ramchal who talks about how all the relationships in our lives - parent/child, spouse, friend - are metaphors for how we are to relate to Hashem. And all the relationships are to enable us to develop ourselves fully. We are to be givers. There is no question that marriage and parenthood are "shortcuts" to get there, but a person can a completely fufilled and meaningful life regardless.

ssspectacular

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:45 am

It says about Sarah Imeinu that she was happy all the days of her life-even when she didn't have children.

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:48 am

ssspectacular wrote:

It says about Sarah Imeinu that she was happy all the days of her life-even when she didn't have children.

Where?

Mommyg8

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:52 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Where?

Yes, I also just heard this. Maybe one of the meforshim?

But definitely Rochel and Chana did feel unfulfilled without children.

gold21

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:55 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Where?

I think where it says in the chumash Meah & Esrim & Shevah years all as separate numbers (it doesn't say 127, it says 100+ 20+ 7) when referring to her passing away.

The reason is that every day and every year of her life was complete. Or something to that effect.

It's been a few years since elementary school. Tongue Out

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:59 am

gold21 wrote:

Ok, so that's along the lines of what I said. Thanks.

pause

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 12:25 pm

gold21 wrote:

Koolon shovin l'tovah

pause

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 12:26 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Definitely Rochel, maybe Chana as well - I'm trying to remember Rochels exact words - I remember Yaakovs answer התחת אלוקים אנוכי...

הבה לי בנים ואם אין מתה אנכי

etky

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 12:40 pm

I don't think we can view this issue through a modern lense.
A childless woman in antiquity was unfulfilled. Childbearing was a woman's number one function in society.
The imahot may have had satisfaction from other areas of their lives (Sarah probably foremost among them) but yes, I think we can unequivocally say that they were unfulfilled in terms of the social expectations of them.
I get the feeling though that Rachel was the most personally miserable from her barrenness. Probably because she viewed herself as being in competition with her sister. That probably is what pushed her over the edge.

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 1:12 pm

etky wrote:

Do you think she was more miserable than, say, Chana, shmuels mother?

etky

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 1:26 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

Do you think she was more miserable than, say, Chana, shmuels mother?

Possibly, although I was really speaking only of the imahot in my post.
I think that the competition aspect - over children and over the husband's love, is more acute in the Rachel/Leah story than in the Hannah/Penina story.
If you look at the midrashey shemot of the shevatim you can see how much of a theme this competition was and how children were viewed as a trump card meant to secure Yaacov's love.
Hannah at least was totally assured of Elkana's love regardless of how many children Penina had borne him.

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 2:41 pm

etky wrote:

True true....

I know this is not quite on topic, but what must it have been like for Chana, once she started having kids, and Penina started losing kids? (That is what happened, right? Or did I make that up?)

etky

Wed, Nov 14 2018, 2:47 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

That is the midrash, based on the passuk in Tefilat Hannah - עד עקרה ילדה שבעה ורבת בנים אומללה and personally I have always found it very upsetting.