Challenge: Argue opposing viewpoint 2018

amother

Ecru

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 11:57 am

It is very appropriate for the government to require secular subjects in yeshivos. Education is a founding principle of this nation, and having a properly enforced standard is obviously part of that. The government has a right to require that all of its citizens are given the tools to succeed as productive citizens.

Although a Torah education is very important and useful, there is nothing "treif" about learning math or science, which can be found as well throughout Torah, or even history. Knowing the language of the country you are living in is also standard in Yiddishkeit, as seen by the fact that the Gemara was written in a dialect of its native country, and Sefer Hamitzvos in the Arabic of its native country. It is no Torah ideal to be illiterate in the language spoken in your country.

Had Yeshivas provided this on their own, the government would not have needed to get as fully involved in regulating it; we brought this upon ourselves for not insisting on it earlier.

It was irresponsible for us as parents to have allowed such a situation to go on, and now we are finally rectifying things, albeit due to government pressure.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 11:58 am

Restrictions on gun ownership are a bad idea, and ultimately unhelpful.

The US constitution allows guns. So any attempt to restrict gun ownership is one of two things: 1. discrimination against a class of people (ex-cons, the mentally ill, etc), or 2. a violation of constitutional freedoms.

Sure, some people say that it's worth it in this one case. But the problem is, we can't decide to ignore just one part of the constitution while keeping the rest sacrosanct. That's like saying I'll only cook on Shabbat, but other than that I'll keep Shabbat. It just doesn't work that way. Either you believe these rules are fundamental freedoms, or you don't. If you change one, eventually you'll start changing others. That's not a risk America can afford to take.

And will gun restrictions even help? Let's face it, there's a lot going on here that has nothing to do with gun laws. The high prison population, systematic discrimination, unsuccessful wars on drugs and gang violence, veterans with untreated PTSD, breakdown of families... Making it all about guns is taking attention away from the real issues.

4pom

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 12:07 pm

Wow Marina. Love this!
This is actually a pivotal step in non-violent communication. A fantastic practice developed by Stanley Rosenberg.
You present the other person’s opinion to the point that they feel satisfactorily heard.
There are lots more steps involved. Going within to examine why and how you get triggered by the other person’s perspective and just stating how you feel and what you would want in “I statements.”
Its a program I’m currently learning about and see the need for it both on a global / political level and on a social skills level- for kids and adults alike.

Hope to get back to this with my try later.
When I’m not on the phone.
Please excuse typos.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 12:11 pm

Transgender women should be able to compete freely in women's sports.

Arguments against this tend to be all about what might happen. Transgender women who grew to an unusual (for women) height (as boys) might start winning all of the races. Women's sports might become a place where born-women are excluded, just like sports was before the concept of "women's sports" was invented.

If that happens, yes, it would be a problem women's sports would need to deal with. But why exclude an entire group of people because it might be a problem? Wait and see if it is a problem, and then deal with it accordingly. We don't need to panic because transgender women won 0.02% of women's sports events.

Whatever your views, even if you think "transgender" isn't really a thing - we can all agree that this is a very vulnerable population, right? There's no justification for doing something that could cause significant mental distress to people who are already in a bad place when it's not even clear yet whether or not there's a real problem.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 12:21 pm

Not vaccinating your child is tantamount to child abuse. The government should step in and force parents to vaccinate.

VPDs have historically killed millions of children, and with extremely few side effects, vaccination has prevented countless deaths and disfigurements due to the terrible childhood scourges of yesteryear.

There is no justification for allowing a child to unnecessarily suffer through a week-long disease that they could have easily prevented. There is no justification for putting the elderly, expecting, or immunocompromised at risk by spreading an illness we have the capacity of avoiding.

For those whining about side effects, well - guess what: Polio, measles, mumps, etc. have side effects too. Look at the statistics and it will be quite obvious that one set of risks is far lower.

gingertop

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 12:47 pm

gingertop wrote:

I'll try:

Yeshivas should not be forced by the state to establish a basic curriculum. In the interest of freedom of religion, government organizations should stay out of the private religious choices that parents make for their children.
Parents can choose to send their children to other schools. They are making a choice to send to private schools where the main goal is the pursuit of Torah knowledge. Being forced to teach other subjects is an infringement of the parents' best interests.
People can supplement their learning by educating themselves.
Students who graduate without basic language arts and mathematical standards can still be successful within their communities as teachers in the schools they graduated from. They can be entrepreneurs and they can have high paying blue collar jobs. Alternatively, they can catch up by taking specifically designed courses that will bring them up to level.

I'm back for my extra credit:

My own real argument to the above would be, but why allow parents handicap their children. Literacy is a gift and the state should not allow parents to deprive children of this. Especially as many parents themselves may be troubled with the lack of basic secular education and may choose schools because that is the only viable choice unless they openly rebel against their families and communities. They are essentially forced into this decision. It is not freedom of choice.

The opposing opinion which I will now argue:

It is incredibly authoritarian to make intrusive decisions on what parents "really want". The schools were chosen by them for their children's education and being a free society means respecting that this is really their decision. If they are being coerced by social norms, there is no real way to determine that. We must respect their stated and practiced opinion.

In addition, while math and science may seem innocent and its absence in some schools completely unwarranted, governmental coercion is totalitarian. This decision may seem benevolent but others will be less so. The slippery slope is real. Parents should have the final say in their children's lives, not elected bureaucrats.

OK. What do I get for doing this, Marina?

causemommysaid

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 2:30 pm

LGBT rights is a cause that every person with humanity should be fighting valiantly for. People have emotions and those emotions should be taken seriously. One person has no right to invalidate another persons feelings because they think it's wrong. Every person should have agency over their own body and if they want to do things to alter it to align it to their emotional makeup that should be their legal right and as a free country we are obligated to help them with their free choices. In addition, everyone should be allowed to marry who they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and its mutually agreed upon. If we value our own freedom we should extend that right to everyone, even people who don't fit convention.

Argument: Genetically, a person is a man or a woman. You can't change DNA so you are born the way you are.

Answer: Although a person has DNA of one gender or another, their brain can actually feel a different way. While you can't change DNA, you can help a person live more authentically to how they feel. Science today has made significant progress in hormones and cosmetic changes. If availing themselves of those scientific discoveries leads to happiness and freedom it is our obligation as a free country to allow those treatments.

wow that was hard

InnerMe

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 3:07 pm

It is better to keep s-xual abuse allegations quiet. This is because you can never be sure if it's true or not. There are many cases of false allegations. The risk of ruining someone's life with such defamation is wrong and contrary to the torah. If someone has an allegation they need to go to bais din and/or a secular court and settle it there. Putting it out on social media is the wrong way to go and just encourages gossip for those who love to grind the gossip mill. The potential for shaming somebody outweighs the person's need to create awareness. Awareness can be created through other ways without using personal stories. It is always important to remember that there's a face and heart behind the alleged perpetrator and if it's false such allegations are the equivalent of murdering a person since there will always be people who will doubt that the alleged perpetrator wasn't guilty. This may lead to ostracism from the community and social isolation.

simcha2

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 3:20 pm

Driving without using seatbelts or "double buckling" is a reasonable, logical choice in many situations. Many frum families have more children than can fit in the car if each person had to have their own restraint. The additional cost of a larger vehicle is prohibitive to many families. If families can't travel together it is detrimental to family time,
makes it hard to visit relatives and reduces the experiences one can have. Carpools would have to be smaller so each person would have to drive more frequently and this would lead to more cars on the roads. More cars increase congestion, pollution and the chance of accidents.

The chance of getting into an accident that requires a seat belt to prevent harm is actually very small.

The increased cost, harm to the environment and congestion are enough to offset the small chance of injury.

sequoia

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 3:32 pm

marina wrote:

I am sure you can find one controversial issue that you can argue in the reverse! You are a pretty open minded and thoughtful person. No need to argue the reverse on every single issue- just choose one.

I don’t have strong opinions on most American topics, and I can’t argue something like “Annexing the Crimea was the right thing to do.”

It’s not just controversial issues, it’s controversial issues where you have a specific view and you know for sure you’re right. That’s what makes the exercise interesting.

InnerMe

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 3:43 pm

Here's a loaded one:
Printing women's pictures in magazine is actually a bad idea. Firstly, how would editors know which photos to allow and which to disallow. They'd literally have to hire another team to sift through the appropriateness of each photo. It may seem like "hey what's the big deal? Collar bone. Check. Knees. Check. Elbows. Check. No cleavage. Check." but if you think about it it's a lot more nuanced then that. For example, in a right wing magazine people may be offended by a picture of a women with a full face of makeup. Now, whose to determine whether it should or shouldn't go in?
This whole deciding process would take up way too much time and resources for already overloaded and overworked editors.

In addition, it can cause bad feelings if a picture is rejected as being not in line with the publications tznius standards. The subject may feel hurt and rejected, especially if she feels like she fits the modesty expectations of this magazine, and that is definitely not something we want should happen.

Saralle

Tue, Nov 27 2018, 3:47 pm

Okay, let me try one.

All mothers can and should nurse their babies. It is the natural way of the world, and the way Hashem created us. Mothers milk is always best for the baby, and protects the baby from all kinds of diseases and learning disabilities later in life. If your baby cries a lot, it's probably something you're eating. You should figure out what it is and see your baby calm down (it's like magic!) PSA: Probably dairy, eggs or gluten.
If you think you don't have enough milk, take mega milk, and eat ice cream. It will increase your supply and your baby will learn to nurse like a pro. Your baby might lose a bit of weight in the beginning but it'll be worth it because he will soon nurse and gain it all back.
Even a problem such as tongue tie shouldn't stop you from giving your baby "liquid gold" to eat. Tongue tie can be easily fixed and the baby doesn't have pain for more than a minute. There is no excuse for not nursing your baby. If you really wanted, you would be able to.

(Not a political opinion, is this still okay?)