Does prayer really have power? How do you know?

octopus

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 9:47 am

I do believe in the power of prayer. I think prayer transforms us, and bonds us closer to Hashem. I don't think it works like putting in a quarter into a gumball machine, though. I also can empathize with people that feel their prayers were not answered the way the wanted it to be (through my own experience). I've also experienced my prayers being accepted.

dankbar

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 10:09 am

Yes I experienced alot of suffering but I try to see the good. The things that seemed the worst turned out to be the salvation.

Laiya

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 5:49 pm

amother wrote:

How do you know he listens and cares? If you can demonstrate this point, I would be very happy.

Laiya wrote:

That's impossible, because how you interpret a situation is personal.

Just read a statement from terrorist victim Shira Yael's parents, in which they were thanking Hashem for His many miracles--that the bullet didn't shatter her pelvis; that more people weren't injured, etc.

dankbar

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 6:59 pm

Slate gray you want to prove if tefilah works or not by scientific research? Wrong avenue

simcha2

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 7:01 pm

I think this is the inherent tension between the understanding of hashgacha pratis as explained by Rambam and as explained in Chovovos Halevavos. They were both writing at about the same time, but had vastly different conceptions of how Hashem interacts with an individual.

Rambam basically says that apart from tzadikkim there is only direct intervention in for life in a general way. Chives Halevavos writes that there is a much more personal relationship and that Hashem is determining everything for the good in your life.

Both are accepted viewpoints in yiddishkeit. Rambam writes that to think that we can change Hashem is blasphemous. Prayer is for us, not Hashem.

amother

Green

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 7:38 pm

Laiya wrote:

Firstly, Hopefully she and her child have a complete refuah. As far as the comments you mentioned above, in my opinion they are typical yet completely nonsensical comment that are frequently made as a result of many years of training the mind to think in a particular illogical way.
It is comforting to us to think of hashem as our kind loving father. It's reassuring. I've noticed that regardless of how terrible a tragedy is, we always find a way that it could have been worse and thank hashem for his kindness and compassion in not bringing even more destruction. A family nebbach loses children in a fire? Chasdie hashem one of the surviving children was supposed to be home and wasn't. A baby is born half blind? Hashem is so kind the baby could've been even worse. Do you apply this logic anywhere else? If a guy would walk up to me in the street and punch me in the face 3 times and steal my car, I wouldn't say, that man was so kind! He easily could've punched me another 10 times yet he didn't.
My point is that the ways of hashem are mysterious and unknown. I don't think it's a mitzvah to brainwash ourselves into believing things that defy human logic. We simply have to concede that we don't understand. Why is it necessary to take an awful tragic event and try to demonstrate hashems goodness within it? Why can't we just say that we don't understand?

Surrendered

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 8:54 pm

We have to understand that we don't understand! (Hashem's ways)

Laiya

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 9:08 pm

amother wrote:

It seems to me like you're trying to use logic to understand emotions.

The response to your mashal would be that Hashem gave us the gift of life itself, which is intrinsically valuable beyond comprehension and regardless of any pain that might come with it.

Why is it hard to believe that there are people who truly feel that way--overcome with gratitude at the gift of life--to the extent that they are able to thank Hashem in the midst of tragedy?

amother

Green

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 9:25 pm

Laiya wrote:

Granted, we can and should be grateful for the gift of life. However, to try to apply the events that we see in this world and determine from them that we see a kind and compassionate god I think is being dishonest and really a result of many years of brainwashing. Again, we just don't understand god. But to try to twist every tragic event into demonstrating hashems kindness and love for us is dishonest.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

I'm conflicted with davening for something. On one hand tefilah often includes Bakasha and specific requests. It seems that it is appropriate to ask hashem for things. We ask for health, shiduchim, children, and money, to name a few. On the other hand I can't help but notice that ultimately, there really doesn't appear to be ANY difference between those that daven and ask hashem and those that don't bother davening when it comes to literally anything. So which is it? Does tefilah actually help, or is it really just a way of trying to establish a connection with hashem? And if it is only about a connection, how does it help create a connection when hashem is treating everyone the same in a seemingly random way that is clearly beyond human comprehension?

You really don't see ANY difference, literally? You don't see that frum people are more likely to get married, have children, and live relatively comfortable lives? You don't see that frum people have more nachas from their children then non-frum people? Because I do.

I see that tefillah actually helps. I have had personal experiences, literally, and I know lots of my friends have had these experiences as well.

As to why tefillah may not help, I have heard it explained like this:

BEFORE something bad happens, you can daven that the bad thing should NOT happen, and you need to daven relatively little. Please Hashem, keep my family safe, keep us financially secure, keep us healthy, etc. etc. etc. If your family is already safe, already financially secure, and already healthy, you need relatively little amount of tefilos.

But once a tzarah actually happens, you need A LOT more tefillos for things to change. Because you are in essence asking for a miracle, and for a miracle - well, G-d doesn't "like" doing miracles. So you need a lot of zchusim, plus you need to beg really, really hard.

As for why do bad things happen to good people - this question is as old as time itself. We have numerous seforim, both in tanach (specifically Iyov) and later, that address this question. There are literally books and books written on this topic - and an excellent contemporary book is "Making Sense of Suffering" by Rabbi Yitzchok Kirzner.

One of the explanations as to why bad things happen is because we don't always understand why something might be good. We live in times that are shrouded in darkness, and the "good" is not always able to be seen as such. I learned in school that when something good happens, we say "boruch hatov v'hameitiv", but when something bad happens we say "boruch dayan emes". We don't say hatov v'hameitiv, but when Moshiach comes, we will say hatov v'hamaytiv for everything, because then there will be true clarity. We also learned that in shma, we say emes v'yatziv during the day shma, but emes v'emunah in the night shema. Because at night, we don't always see the good, and we have to have emunah.

I have heard another explanation as to why tefila doesn't help is that if we don't actually believe in what we are davening, then it won't really help. The more we BELIEVE that Hashem is actually listening and is ABLE to help us, the more likely it is that Hashem WILL help us.

It's not just random - tefillah is important, and it really does help. For example, when Adam was created, Hashem had just put seeds into the ground but they did not yet sprout into food. G-d was waiting for Adam to daven for the food to grow. And this is why he did it. Tefillah is important, and without tefillah, we would not get a lot of what we take for granted.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 9:46 pm

For those who are interested, there is an excellent shiur on this topic that I thought was very helpful in explaining this:

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....68462

amother

Pearl

Mon, Dec 10 2018, 11:43 pm

I believe, because the Rambam, the Chasam Sofer and many, many other super wise believed. If these giants believed that tefilla helps, then I believe too.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 9:22 am

If you haven't already, you might want to read Praying with Fire by Rabbi Heshy Kleinman. One of the things he mentions is that there are people who can be deserving of great things, but if they don't pray for them, they won't receive them. He covers a lot of the topics on tefillah, in an inspirational way.
Of course it can be very dispiriting if you keep praying for something you need desperately, and don't see your prayers being answered. I hope that your prayers are answered soon, and for good.

amother

Green

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

[u]

Isn't this a silly thing to say? Do you notice any difference with regard to receiving "great things" such as health, children, parnassah, avoiding tragedy, between those that daven 5 hours a day and those that hardly daven? How can anyone make such a claim that is so clearly in direct conflict with reality? Do you believe this? Do you believe that couples who can't have children haven't davened enough?

amother

Green

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 10:39 am

dankbar wrote:

I was the one who shared the chain of hashgacha pratis on another thread, go read it & then you will see there is no way not to believe.

I wish you all the mazal and bracha in the world, but reading your posts it appears that your hashgacha pratis stories that strengthen your emunah come from the fact that hashem has given you several very difficult hardships like illness and parnassah, and since it could have been even worse it means you can always rely on hashem.

What can I say? I'm not sure I understand that way of thinking.

Surrendered

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 10:45 am

Incredible Hashgacha Pratis:
I called Chazak hotline, came across Rabbi Ashear's shiurim on Emunah (411), and randomly pressed a key for a lesson...
I pressed #28, guess what he spoke about???
Why do we need prayer, if many people are blessed without prayer???
Gotta listen to it! Food for thought...

dankbar

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:18 am

amother wrote:

That's the only way to get through the hardships.
You see some people going thru such difficult stuff, but they're seeing the good & being strong. You have to first build up your emunah, so when the going gets tough, you have what to hold onto.

Someone shared with me, how her child fell, rushed to er to rule out concussions, once scans were taken they found a brain tumor. The hostess, felt so bad child fell by her. Imagine this mom, thanked her hostess so many times because if he hasn't fallen by her they would never find out or it would be too late already. I was amazed that she saw the hashgacha pratis & chesed from Hashem in this. That's the only way to go on.

dankbar

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:25 am

Also I'm not saying I'm thankful because it couldve been worse, just keep seeing kisses from Above, how Hashem is literally holding my hand, thru every step of this challenging ordeal. Every step ahead, I reflect & see that past events that seemed bad were a blessing in disguise. It's mindboggling & awesome. There is no way a human would be able orchestrate all this. There must be a Gd here that loves me & cares so much for me, that figured out all the logistics, so how can I have tanus after that....like why me?

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:45 am

amother wrote:

I don't see it that way.
But I can understand how someone can.

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:49 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have heard another explanation as to why tefila doesn't help is that if we don't actually believe in what we are davening, then it won't really help. The more we BELIEVE that Hashem is actually listening and is ABLE to help us, the more likely it is that Hashem WILL help us.
.

I want to like this wonderful post, but I'm afraid this paragraph could discourage people from davening unless they were in the right frame of mind.
Two vorts:
1. I think it's the Kotzker who said this on the words of Shema, "Al levavecha." Why should the words be on our hearts and not in? Because sometimes we are not receptive. But we want the words to be there, so that when our hearts do crack open, all the words and meaning behind them will fall in.
2. Rabbi Reisman's spoken about davening even when we're in a rut (think, yemei hasina, etc.). It's still valuable. There's a mashal about a village where when the clocks stopped working, they had to wait for the traveling clockmaker to get to their town to repair them. The smart person will continue to wind the mechanism so it won't atrophy. So davening even when we're not in the optimal frame of mind is important, to keep the mechanism from atrophying.