I got myself in a pickle

sequoia

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:12 pm

amother wrote:

Honey, I read Tolstoy in Russian age 10.

Me too

Listen, I don’t know you, and maybe I shouldn’t have been so categorical. Everyone is different, and that’s what makes the world interesting. I feel that the things we *must* give up to be frum are more than sufficient - no need to add on. Your journey and your personality led you to another conclusion.

However, there is no need to be condescending (especially as this is a hashkafic, not halakhic, question).

urban gypsy

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:18 pm

sequoia wrote:

Yes, she’s saying she’s a Russian speaker. Since she’s amother we don’t necessarily know that.

Haha me too. Funny to try use this as "literary" cred in a chat that is probably full of imas who read Tolstoy in Russian at age 10!
Tolstoy is not all that challenging for a native Russian reader... just very long and with a very large cast of characters to keep track of.

sequoia

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:28 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

It’s not about cred... it’s not about us at all! It’s about developing imaginative empathy, going outside ourselves...

This is important. It’s not just entertainment (although that too). Good books DO “teach us something,” and I believe we are missing out if we exclude them from our lives. That’s why I engaged in an argument, while normally I’d say, ‘we have different wordviews, we come from different communities, so what’s there to argue about?’ Good books aren’t just a way to pass the time on a long shabbos afternoon or get through a required class in college or even acquire “cocktail party conversation.” They’re good for our soul, for our humanity. I believe that with all my heart.

urban gypsy

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:32 pm

sequoia wrote:

I agree with everything you wrote here !!!! Heart

I just meant that it's weird to use "reading Tolstoy at age 10 in Russian" as a proof of what a great lover of literature you used to be before you became frum.
Sorry for derailing the thread Study

amother

Brown

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:33 pm

sequoia wrote:

Me too

Actually I wasn’t being condescending but merely answering your assertion that had I really been an avid reader I would not have given up good literature.
Also I do believe there’s no comparison between Tolstoy & the kind of shmutz people are allowing their kids to be exposed to.
I don’t think you can compare the value systems of the current authors (transgender values 😳).
That’s not the values any frum parent should want their child exposed to. I don’t care where on the frum spectrum a person is but to expose innocent minds to this shmutz is irresponsible.

urban gypsy

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:34 pm

amother wrote:

HONEY Tolstoy used to sleep with his serfs and we all know what Anna Karenina is about Batting Eyelashes

amother

Brown

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:38 pm

sequoia wrote:

I agree with you re books influencing our minds & hashkafos. They alter the way we view the world & definitely broaden our reality.
That’s precisely my issue with exposing children to the non Jewish & non frum value system.
In my opinion the negatives far outweigh any positives.

amother

Brown

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:40 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

No it’s not & was not challenging. I simply used to to show that yes I was an avid reader. Yet I chose to give up non Jewish literature & never exposed my children to it.

amother

Brown

Wed, Dec 19 2018, 4:46 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

HONEY Tolstoy used to sleep with his serfs and we all know what Anna Karenina is about Batting Eyelashes

I rest my case. It’s not appropriate for a frum child. Period. Non Jewish literature written by authors whose value system is not in line with Torah is wrong to expose children to.
So wether it’s beautifully written Tolstoy or shmutz by lesser talented individuals why are frum parents willingly allowing their children to have their minds broadened by those values?

amother

Violet

Thu, Dec 20 2018, 5:04 am

Hey - OP here,
Thanks so much for all the responses.
We talked to my daughter about the book after dinner last night, she was disappointed and definitely looked confused/troubled, but she accepted it. After my husband left for shul she burst into tears, she was saying that she's going to miss the characters. Apparently it's about a group of friends who have all been mistreated and bullied in the past and become sort of like a family and are very loyal friends. (She has had a lot of rejection from her previously best friends this year so I think this series really struck a chord....sigh.) When she got into bed she asked if she could have the book "just to read the names of the chapters"...this was really heartbreaking to me. I think in light of this response I better read the book myself and see if I can just have her skip a few pages/chapters if need be. She reads in hebrew, so I need to go find it in english (because my hebrew isn't good enough). I knew she would take it hard (which is why I posted here), but I didn't think she would take it this hard.

Questions -
1. If percy jackson is also problematic is there anything by rick riordan that is ok?
(I downloaded the list from e-chinuch, but this author isn't on it)
2. Can anyone recommend a really amazing jewish book/series that she can read next? (Preferably in hebrew?)--she says most jewish books are boring/poorly written (I think we can all agree that she has a point Wink

)

amother

Emerald

Thu, Dec 20 2018, 6:26 am

I don't know what you have access to in EY. In the US I used to buy lots of old books at the flea market for a quarter, and then I could just cut out pages or black out as I found appropriate.

Also I don't know your budget, if you'd want to buy lots of books on ebay, where you can get a bunch of kids books at a time. Some of the older ones are very clean and even moral.

Some series I've enjoyed (but I am very into magic etc which as mentioned could be controversial) - Edward Eager (Half Magic, Knights Castle etc), Sylvia Waugh (5 books about the Menyms - lifesize dolls that come to life, also a series of 3 about some people from another planet)

amother

Plum

Thu, Dec 20 2018, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

)

big hugs.
I can't help you but this reminds me of when I went into a school library that had the first few 39 Clues books and I told them that they shouldn't have started with it because I could guarantee that somewhere along the line it will get objectionable. It's really hard to start with series without the understanding that you might have to stop. I had to stall one of my kids with Harry Potter 4.