 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Household Management
creditcards
|
 Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:33 am
| asmileaday wrote: | The standard chassidish wedding costs far less than the non chassidish wedding.
Now if you're talking about the "gifts" that's a whole nother story and a pet peeve of mine that did not start now when I'm older and wiser. I've been arguing against the extravagant kallah jewelry since I was in high school.
I believe it's a total waste of money. An 18 year old does not need to be bedecked in thousands of dollars of diamonds and gold. It's ridiculous. And styles change. Besides my diamond ring I do not wear any of my kallah jewelry anymore.
I'm not sure what can be done to change this. It's so ingrained it's almost like halachah! It's not the kind of thing where you can just change for yourself and your family.
Suppose I'd want to change this. I only have boys. If any of my future mechutanim are on here, what kind of conversation would we have before the shidduch happens in regards to this matter? |
The chasidim I know don't spend a lot on wedding gifts at all. I didn't get expensive jewelry and we didn't buy expensive gifts either. We did everything the cheapest way possible.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 2
|
ectomorph
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:44 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | Walmart, Target, Big Lots all have furniture, mattresses, and linens and the rest of the world apparently thinks that the stuff is acceptable for temporary apartment use. | thats my point. The ppl who are spending so much money are not standard in yeshivish community ( still waiting for my chassidish friend to chime in)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
asmileaday
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:01 am
| creditcards wrote: | | The chasidim I know don't spend a lot on wedding gifts at all. I didn't get expensive jewelry and we didn't buy expensive gifts either. We did everything the cheapest way possible. |
Unless you're getting cz jewelry then even cheap will still cost a pretty unnecessary penny.
I've read a little further into the the thread. Furniture? Don't get me started on that. Especially in the tiny Brooklyn apartments where there's no space.
So much wasteful spending for no good reason.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
|
amother
Khaki
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:05 am
| southernbubby wrote: | It reminds me of the saying "when push comes to shove". Eventually, when something stops working, the system changes but the system must still be working well enough that it hasn't been scrapped yet. Kind of like my old car that is running today but who knows what will happen tomorrow. But as long as it's running, I'm going to assume that it's going to work tomorrow.
This system isn't really broken enough to scrap at the moment. |
Oh but it is broken. If the majority of parents go into debt to marry off their kids, then I think that qualifies to call a system broken. Of course, this is individual to each community and is not a blanket statement. But with that said, I would say that the chassidish system is largely broken.
I'm currently in shidduchim. I reached out to my family members, and friends who have married off their children to get an idea of the financial cost. The responses I've gotten were: - you need minimum of $35K, 40K, or $50K PER SIDE. And none of these were from people who are very well off, and spend on luxuries. There are so many "rules" and "expectations", that if a Kallah/Chosson don't receive what's considered to be "normal", it creates a lot of negativity. The couples feel shamed among their friends, they think they'll harder time setting up their lives cause they're missing so many 'essentials', and the mechutunim get labeled as 'weird' or 'stingy', etc.
I've asked them how they do it, and the majority of them all said they borrow money to marry off their kids. Maybe not for the first, or possibly the second, but by the time they come around to their 3rd, its almost a foregone conclusion (for the average earner). And if I need proof of this, I was told to contact the many Gemachs around town.
My husband also has an acquaintance that is a big Asken in the community. My husband asked about him about this, how people actually go about marrying off so many kids. He responded that you should know (and I quote word for word) "that for approximately 80% of the weddings in my community, money is being raised for them".
Do you not call a system like this broken?
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
16
|
creditcards
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:12 am
| asmileaday wrote: | Unless you're getting cz jewelry then even cheap will still cost a pretty unnecessary penny.
I've read a little further into the the thread. Furniture? Don't get me started on that. Especially in the tiny Brooklyn apartments where there's no space.
So much wasteful spending for no good reason. |
What do you consider expensive?
All my wedding expenses were covered by my office job without a degree. That includes all my clothing. And all the things that I bought for my apartment, painting and scraping and furniture, dishes and a wash machine.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
southernbubby
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:19 am
| amother wrote: | Oh but it is broken. If the majority of parents go into debt to marry off their kids, then I think that qualifies to call a system broken. Of course, this is individual to each community and is not a blanket statement. But with that said, I would say that the chassidish system is largely broken.
I'm currently in shidduchim. I reached out to my family members, and friends who have married off their children to get an idea of the financial cost. The responses I've gotten were: - you need minimum of $35K, 40K, or $50K PER SIDE. And none of these were from people who are very well off, and spend on luxuries. There are so many "rules" and "expectations", that if a Kallah/Chosson don't receive what's considered to be "normal", it creates a lot of negativity. The couples feel shamed among their friends, they think they'll harder time setting up their lives cause they're missing so many 'essentials', and the mechutunim get labeled as 'weird' or 'stingy', etc.
I've asked them how they do it, and the majority of them all said they borrow money to marry off their kids. Maybe not for the first, or possibly the second, but by the time they come around to their 3rd, its almost a foregone conclusion (for the average earner). And if I need proof of this, I was told to contact the many Gemachs around town.
My husband also has an acquaintance that is a big Asken in the community. My husband asked about him about this, how people actually go about marrying off so many kids. He responded that you should know (and I quote word for word) "that for approximately 80% of the weddings in my community, money is being raised for them".
Do you not call a system like this broken? |
Broken is when it becomes so difficult that the majority have to scrap the status quo. An example is when yeshivas are full and parents are forced to put together another school. As long as there are customers for the $2K linen sets, people will still feel like that is a necessity. It will take enough people to demand lower price merchandise for it to be the new normal.
As far as the age of shidduchim, in some circles the average age has crept up due to the difficulty in finding shidduchim.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Khaki
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:30 am
| southernbubby wrote: | Broken is when it becomes so difficult that the majority have to scrap the status quo. An example is when yeshivas are full and parents are forced to put together another school. As long as there are customers for the $2K linen sets, people will still feel like that is a necessity. It will take enough people to demand lower price merchandise for it to be the new normal.
As far as the age of shidduchim, in some circles the average age has crept up due to the difficulty in finding shidduchim. |
When your status in the community, the emotional guilt trip of "depriving the kids", and the choices in future shidduchim is dependent on the status quo, then parents will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo, even if it makes no sense to anyone.
Borrowing from one Gemach to pay off the other, rinse and repeat, and to continue that cycle well into 20+years, defines a broken system, imo. We can agree to disagree on this one. But I agree with you that the impetus for change has to come collectively from the community. If a large group agrees to undertake a large cut in the "rules", only then can change occur. Until then, parents are forced into the emotional 'blackmail' of ensuring that their kids don't feel deprived or 'less than' others.
In my community though, the average age has remained static. The girls/boys are engaged by 18-19. After that age, they're considered to be 'older'. My friend's son is 19 years old (close to 20) and she is so desperate. She is tearing her hair out of her head.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
Amarante
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:40 am
The thread is very confusing.
Is it correct that one needs to spend between $70,000 and $100,000 per child in order to not lose face within the community?
That amount is mind boggling as that is the down payment for a nice house which would be a real investment versus linens, furniture and jewelry which depreciate immediately.
The posts don't seem to agree on what is the "normal" expectation within the community.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
10
|
ectomorph
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 9:52 am
| Amarante wrote: | The thread is very confusing.
Is it correct that one needs to spend between $70,000 and $100,000 per child in order to not lose face within the community?
That amount is mind boggling as that is the down payment for a nice house which would be a real investment versus linens, furniture and jewelry which depreciate immediately.
The posts don't seem to agree on what is the "normal" expectation within the community. | it is not correct.
Some people are rich and do spend that much... This is rare. For some reason people on imamother are either from very well to do homes or are trolls making up numbers. No one normal spends 2200 on linen.
most people do a takana wedding and get the basics cheaply and second hand. Rent is the biggest expense but rarely does support last more than 2-4 years.
Out of the last 20 weddings I've been involved in only 1 required tzedaka and none spent more than 20k initially between both sides including the wedding and setting up the home and gifts...
Rent is diff for every couple. Frequently the wife is working or about to start working and "support" is only a few hundred a month for 2 years. Nice but hardly sufficient and just a bit of a leg up for the couple.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
2
|
11213
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 10:01 am
Didn’t read all the answers but here are the basic costs of a chasidishe bp wedding:
Girl gets:
Silver lichter
Machzor set
Pearls
Bracelet
Ring
Earrings (some don’t but most do)
Necklace (some don’t but most do)
Some do shabbos watch
1 or two shaitel
Vasser tichel + shirtzel
Boy gets:
Tfilin + bag
Silver becher
Silver menorah
Shtraimel
Bekishe
Tish bekish
Weekly long suit
Shas / sforim
Couple gets:
All the basics for the house
A monthly support from parents if the boy learns (which is the majority)
All that added to the cost of the wedding itself, which can be from 10k till anywhere adds up to a great sum of money.
Chasidishe weddings aren’t expensive at all. It’s the expenses that come before and after that are.
Is there a solution to change that?
I think that yes. And it starts at school with mechanchim teaching girls to have lower expectations. It starts with a few balbatish families that would take the lead and make standard weddings and lead by example (even if they can afford). It starts with teaching girls to be less materialistic and have less expectations). It starts with shadchanim and Kallah teachers talking to Kallahs and mothers about all that. It starts with rabonim raising awareness on these issues in shul.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
9
|
|
amother
Khaki
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 10:18 am
| 11213 wrote: | Didn’t read all the answers but here are the basic costs of a chasidishe bp wedding:
Girl gets:
Silver lichter
Machzor set
Pearls
Bracelet
Ring
Earrings (some don’t but most do)
Necklace (some don’t but most do)
Some do shabbos watch
1 or two shaitel
Vasser tichel + shirtzel
Boy gets:
Tfilin + bag
Silver becher
Silver menorah
Shtraimel
Bekishe
Tish bekish
Weekly long suit
Shas / sforim
Couple gets:
All the basics for the house
A monthly support from parents if the boy learns (which is the majority)
All that added to the cost of the wedding itself, which can be from 10k till anywhere adds up to a great sum of money.
Chasidishe weddings aren’t expensive at all. It’s the expenses that come before and after that are.
Is there a solution to change that?
I think that yes. And it starts at school with mechanchim teaching girls to have lower expectations. It starts with a few balbatish families that would take the lead and make standard weddings and lead by example (even if they can afford). It starts with teaching girls to be less materialistic and have less expectations). It starts with shadchanim and Kallah teachers talking to Kallahs and mothers about all that. It starts with rabonim raising awareness on these issues in shul. |
Agree 100%. I would just add that the girls and boys need to be taught that you don't need to get married with having it the home all set out for you. You only need the basics and after the wedding they can focus on how they will build their home together, both the gashmius and ruchniyos aspect of it.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
southernbubby
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 10:35 am
| amother wrote: | When your status in the community, the emotional guilt trip of "depriving the kids", and the choices in future shidduchim is dependent on the status quo, then parents will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo, even if it makes no sense to anyone.
Borrowing from one Gemach to pay off the other, rinse and repeat, and to continue that cycle well into 20+years, defines a broken system, imo. We can agree to disagree on this one. But I agree with you that the impetus for change has to come collectively from the community. If a large group agrees to undertake a large cut in the "rules", only then can change occur. Until then, parents are forced into the emotional 'blackmail' of ensuring that their kids don't feel deprived or 'less than' others.
In my community though, the average age has remained static. The girls/boys are engaged by 18-19. After that age, they're considered to be 'older'. My friend's son is 19 years old (close to 20) and she is so desperate. She is tearing her hair out of her head. |
But groups don't usually make group decisions because everyone is different. It morphs from adapting to conditions.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Khaki
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 10:41 am
| southernbubby wrote: | | But groups don't usually make group decisions because everyone is different. It morphs from adapting to conditions. |
Not in my community. Conformity and being the same as everyone else is at the core of almost everything. So very few will be ok with adapting to conditions, they'll just force themselves somehow to do what everyone else does, even if it extremely detrimental to them. If it will be considered to be ok by 'everyone else', only the will they agree to adapt.
If a community is built upon a group mentality, it takes a group to change it. Only where individuality is allowed & encouraged, are people ok with individually adapting to their circumstances (generally speaking of course).
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
ROFL
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 10:53 am
All of this is above what is needed. BUT inhope you made a mistake and he gets Talis and bag. NOT new Teffilin????
| 11213 wrote: | Didn’t read all the answers but here are the basic costs of a chasidishe bp wedding:
Girl gets:
Silver lichter
Machzor set
Pearls
Bracelet
Ring
Earrings (some don’t but most do)
Necklace (some don’t but most do)
Some do shabbos watch
1 or two shaitel
Vasser tichel + shirtzel
Boy gets:
Tfilin + bag
Silver becher
Silver menorah
Shtraimel
Bekishe
Tish bekish
Weekly long suit
Shas / sforim
Couple gets:
All the basics for the house
A monthly support from parents if the boy learns (which is the majority)
All that added to the cost of the wedding itself, which can be from 10k till anywhere adds up to a great sum of money.
Chasidishe weddings aren’t expensive at all. It’s the expenses that come before and after that are.
Is there a solution to change that?
I think that yes. And it starts at school with mechanchim teaching girls to have lower expectations. It starts with a few balbatish families that would take the lead and make standard weddings and lead by example (even if they can afford). It starts with teaching girls to be less materialistic and have less expectations). It starts with shadchanim and Kallah teachers talking to Kallahs and mothers about all that. It starts with rabonim raising awareness on these issues in shul. |
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
|
amother
Sapphire
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:03 am
Your list is pretty comprehensive... but I'm chassidish, and I don't think that the majority of people get support. (I got $400 a month for the first year)
Also, everyone I know got a watch, but I don't know anyone that got a necklace and pearls... it's usually one or the other.
About the tefillin - I guess she means Rabbeinu Tam tefillin which chassidim start putting on after the wedding. (Normally it's not a "present" from the other side... the chassan's father gets it for him, but I know there is this trend that the chassan asks for the tefillin instead of a gold watch.)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
|
amother
Lilac
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:14 am
| amother wrote: | Your list is pretty comprehensive... but I'm chassidish, and I don't think that the majority of people get support. (I got $400 a month for the first year)
Also, everyone I know got a watch, but I don't know anyone that got a necklace and pearls... it's usually one or the other.
About the tefillin - I guess she means Rabbeinu Tam tefillin which chassidim start putting on after the wedding. (Normally it's not a "present" from the other side... the chassan's father gets it for him, but I know there is this trend that the chassan asks for the tefillin instead of a gold watch.) |
The gift is a new tefillin bag as the chosson will start putting on rabbeinu taam and will need a larger bag to accommodate both. The tefillin itself that is gifted, it's the bag.
And many people only buy the tefillin later when they are able to afford it.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
ecs
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:19 am
| amother wrote: | Your list is pretty comprehensive... but I'm chassidish, and I don't think that the majority of people get support. (I got $400 a month for the first year)
Also, everyone I know got a watch, but I don't know anyone that got a necklace and pearls... it's usually one or the other.
About the tefillin - I guess she means Rabbeinu Tam tefillin which chassidim start putting on after the wedding. (Normally it's not a "present" from the other side... the chassan's father gets it for him, but I know there is this trend that the chassan asks for the tefillin instead of a gold watch.) |
You are right about support. In my experience only the super wealthy do that in chassidish circles.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
creditcards
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:30 am
| 11213 wrote: | Didn’t read all the answers but here are the basic costs of a chasidishe bp wedding:
Girl gets:
Silver lichter
Machzor set
Pearls
Bracelet
Ring
Earrings (some don’t but most do)
Necklace (some don’t but most do)
Some do shabbos watch
1 or two shaitel
Vasser tichel + shirtzel
Boy gets:
Tfilin + bag
Silver becher
Silver menorah
Shtraimel
Bekishe
Tish bekish
Weekly long suit
Shas / sforim
Couple gets:
All the basics for the house
A monthly support from parents if the boy learns (which is the majority)
All that added to the cost of the wedding itself, which can be from 10k till anywhere adds up to a great sum of money.
Chasidishe weddings aren’t expensive at all. It’s the expenses that come before and after that are.
Is there a solution to change that?
I think that yes. And it starts at school with mechanchim teaching girls to have lower expectations. It starts with a few balbatish families that would take the lead and make standard weddings and lead by example (even if they can afford). It starts with teaching girls to be less materialistic and have less expectations). It starts with shadchanim and Kallah teachers talking to Kallahs and mothers about all that. It starts with rabonim raising awareness on these issues in shul. |
In my cirlces the kallah side get the sheitlich for the kallah and chosons side buys the shtreimel so we both were able to buy cheapest we found because it wasn't a gift.
Bekitche and Tish bekitche, suit chosens father also buys for his son. Just like the kallahs side buys clothing for the kallah to wear. Each thing on this list can be cheaper or expensive. My husband got tefillin instead of a watch but we did get him a nice fake watch for $100.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
1
|
|
amother
Blonde
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:45 am
| ecs wrote: | | You are right about support. In my experience only the super wealthy do that in chassidish circles. |
How are teenagers paying their own rent?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
|
amother
Red
|
Sun, Dec 23 2018, 11:51 am
| 11213 wrote: | Didn’t read all the answers but here are the basic costs of a chasidishe bp wedding:
Girl gets:
Silver lichter
Machzor set
Pearls
Bracelet
Ring
Earrings (some don’t but most do)
Necklace (some don’t but most do)
Some do shabbos watch
1 or two shaitel
Vasser tichel + shirtzel
Boy gets:
Tfilin + bag
Silver becher
Silver menorah
Shtraimel
Bekishe
Tish bekish
Weekly long suit
Shas / sforim
Couple gets:
All the basics for the house
A monthly support from parents if the boy learns (which is the majority)
All that added to the cost of the wedding itself, which can be from 10k till anywhere adds up to a great sum of money.
Chasidishe weddings aren’t expensive at all. It’s the expenses that come before and after that are.
Is there a solution to change that?
I think that yes. And it starts at school with mechanchim teaching girls to have lower expectations. It starts with a few balbatish families that would take the lead and make standard weddings and lead by example (even if they can afford). It starts with teaching girls to be less materialistic and have less expectations). It starts with shadchanim and Kallah teachers talking to Kallahs and mothers about all that. It starts with rabonim raising awareness on these issues in shul. |
I would love if the above poster can tell us how all expenses amount to no less than $20k. I highly doubt it. I am Chabad and have many Chassidish friends - this list looks like what they describe to me around wedding time and I am always shocked. How can ppl allow themselves to be entitled to all this when they havent even stepped foot in the world. Leave everything aside: They have all this lavish stuff. Who is being responsible for all of it? Who is paying renters insurance + all the extra fees for going over the max limit for jewelry AND silver? These couples are expecting support whether it be $100, full rent or rent + down payment help. Meanwhile, they are working to afford themselves this lifestyle all the while having kids right away and bringing up with the standard as soon as they enter the world.. Clothes in Chassidish circles are super pricey - but everyone has it so they do too! Many husbands are learning the first few years and when reality hits and support is gone, these couples are thousands if not tens of thousands in debt. In that amount of time, standards only went up (and so did the market!)
Invest those tens of thousands towards a downpayment or into an investment fund and let it grow so that the couple can have that off their head while they work towards building a meaningful and strong relationship in gashmius and ruchniyus. No need for all the glam right out of high school (or not right out of high school if married later) Life happends, no matter how many riches you amass and there is no need in starting out a couple on means they dont have. Its not fair to them (or you!)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
