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-> Household Management
watergirl
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 Sun, Dec 23 2018, 3:03 pm
| amother wrote: | The gift is a new tefillin bag as the chosson will start putting on rabbeinu taam and will need a larger bag to accommodate both. The tefillin itself that is gifted, it's the bag.
And many people only buy the tefillin later when they are able to afford it. |
I’ve gone back to read this a few times to see if I am missing something. The tfillin BAG is the gift, and the RT are not bought now, even though (some) chassidim will start to put them on after the wedding, and the actual tfillen are bought later when the couple has the money for it?
I hope I misread.
But incase I got it right, isn't this so backwards? Watches, jewels, silver bechers, esrog boxes, megillas, whatever random silver pieces are given... leather things, Italian furnishings, all given as gifts. But the ONE THING that has a real mesorah and a real purpose and isnt a made up fad of the moment - THAT is bought later when they “can afford it”? The parents support the couple for the first year, right? Then kids come and parents buy all of the baby stuff. Then rent is a ton. When will this time be?
This doesn't seem backwards to anyone? These are the right priorities? To buy jewels, silver, fancy furnishings, and NOT to buy the tfillin? What am I missing? Why are the made up required gifts more important than tfillin?
Last edited by watergirl on Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 3:12 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | it is not correct.
Some people are rich and do spend that much... This is rare. For some reason people on imamother are either from very well to do homes or are trolls making up numbers. No one normal spends 2200 on linen.
most people do a takana wedding and get the basics cheaply and second hand. Rent is the biggest expense but rarely does support last more than 2-4 years.
Out of the last 20 weddings I've been involved in only 1 required tzedaka and none spent more than 20k initially between both sides including the wedding and setting up the home and gifts...
Rent is diff for every couple. Frequently the wife is working or about to start working and "support" is only a few hundred a month for 2 years. Nice but hardly sufficient and just a bit of a leg up for the couple. |
You're talking about litvish weddings or Chassidish weddings?
There was a recent article in one of the Lakewood publications stating that 50% of the chasan kallahs that get married in Lakewood do require some sort of tzedakah. That's way way too much, IMHO.
Also, you say that only one person you know required tzedakah - how would you know this? They're not generally advertising in the streets. And I'm sure a majority do need to borrow.
Also, would love to know how anyone can spend less than $20,000 a side, litvish or Chassidish. A breakdown, please. And if you're adding support....
But Chassidish weddings have different expenses, and I was told that it DOES cost 40 to 50 thousand dollars total from each SIDE. The chasunah itself is usually not that expensive, but setting up an apartment, gifts, furniture, clothing - all add up. And the expenses are split.
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 3:36 pm
| amother wrote: | Most? Maybe most in your specific circles.
Most people I know got married without any silver, maybe only a pair of candlesticks.
First off - silver is expensive. Not something a newlywed needs.
Second - silver is so impractical. I got rid of any silver I had over the years. Who wants to waste time polishing? No one in my circles under the age of 40 buys silver anymore.
Anyway, your post could almost be satire. The newlyweds need a hutch to put all their silver in. And for this parents go into debt. |
In my circles, everyone I know started off with enough silver to cover all the yom tovim from the tenyoim to the chassunah. All the young kallahs show off their presents they receive and those they give, so it is very much being bought for teenagers.
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 3:58 pm
| amother wrote: | | In my circles, everyone I know started off with enough silver to cover all the yom tovim from the tenyoim to the chassunah. All the young kallahs show off their presents they receive and those they give, so it is very much being bought for teenagers. |
It has changed in the recent years. It started when the price of silver skyrocketed. Most of the gifts aren't in silver anymore, except for the basic becher & leichter.
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 3:59 pm
| amother wrote: | I am trying to wrap my head around young people with limited means and earning prospects starting out life with $2200 sheets - what does that consist of.
Is this limited to affluent members of the communities who are gifting their children from almost unlimited funds or are these parents of limited means so that these luxury household items are in lieu of other things which are more practical.
Are the parents of the children being gifted with such have retirement and other savings? Are their homes fully paid for?
Do the people who are gifted with these luxury household items then have incomes that enable them to support the families without government assistance or significant assistance from the community?
Perhaps since I am currently looking for new linens, I am particularly shocked by the "need" for such expensive stuff since there is beautiful moderately priced linens from various places and that price in the real world is not spent by people unless they are wealthy.
I am also shocked by the justification that such expensive furniture is needed by young people. While I don't think that people need to eat off the floor, there is very functional and attractive furniture from sources like IKEA and West Elm - or even - GASP - Craigslist because I suspect the furniture that is being sourced at such high prices is widely out of fashion for most people and is available at bargain basement rates. Ask me how I know :-) - it's because I couldn't GIVE away my mother's furniture - her gorgeous hutches and china cabinets - her large wood table etc.
And justifying the expense by saying that it's in lieu of education is really short sighted - isn't there a famous saying - teach a man to fish and he'll have food for the rest of his life. Use the money for some kind of education so one can earn a decent living - or use the money as a down payment for a home - or use the money in the form of a savings account so that the newlyweds aren't forced to forego necessary and normal expenses of living because they lack any kind of financial safety net. |
I was married off with tzedukah money. I was against the linens because of the expense, but I ended up getting swept along by everyone. I like shalom and don't like to push back. The linens are gorgeous and still in pristine condition. I got a set of white sheets and a set of summer linen and a heavy set for the winter. I was told this was must haves. I was offered a jewellery package which I turned down because I think the jewelry is only suitable for a teenager. I was older. I definitely would not have worn the jewelry which I told the people sponsoring my wedding. In time DH bought me the requisite jewelry and then some.
DH was given a job by a wealthy member of the community, and then his salary was doubled when we got married. We were set up in a home which we later bought. I would say we were given the equipment to go fishing and fish to eat.
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 4:14 pm
| amother wrote: | | It has changed in the recent years. It started when the price of silver skyrocketed. Most of the gifts aren't in silver anymore, except for the basic becher & leichter. |
Our circles are obviously different. I will repeat that the kallahs are giving and receiving silver in my circles, and it isn't plated. I see the stores are selling glass and crystal, but it isn't being gifted by the couple to each other.
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 4:17 pm
| amother wrote: | I would love if the above poster can tell us how all expenses amount to no less than $20k. I highly doubt it. I am Chabad and have many Chassidish friends - this list looks like what they describe to me around wedding time and I am always shocked. How can ppl allow themselves to be entitled to all this when they havent even stepped foot in the world. Leave everything aside: They have all this lavish stuff. Who is being responsible for all of it? Who is paying renters insurance + all the extra fees for going over the max limit for jewelry AND silver? These couples are expecting support whether it be $100, full rent or rent + down payment help. Meanwhile, they are working to afford themselves this lifestyle all the while having kids right away and bringing up with the standard as soon as they enter the world.. Clothes in Chassidish circles are super pricey - but everyone has it so they do too! Many husbands are learning the first few years and when reality hits and support is gone, these couples are thousands if not tens of thousands in debt. In that amount of time, standards only went up (and so did the market!)
Invest those tens of thousands towards a downpayment or into an investment fund and let it grow so that the couple can have that off their head while they work towards building a meaningful and strong relationship in gashmius and ruchniyus. No need for all the glam right out of high school (or not right out of high school if married later) Life happends, no matter how many riches you amass and there is no need in starting out a couple on means they dont have. Its not fair to them (or you!) |
Investing the money won't work. People are not going to give up their savings to give it to a couple to invest for their security. They will give money to start up a Jewish home.
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amother
Denim
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 4:17 pm
| amother wrote: | | Our circles are obviously different. I will repeat that the kallahs are giving and receiving silver in my circles, and it isn't plated. I see the stores are selling glass and crystal, but it isn't being gifted by the couple to each other. | so your circles are rich. Normal couples aren't doing that
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:30 pm
| amother wrote: | | Investing the money won't work. People are not going to give up their savings to give it to a couple to invest for their security. They will give money to start up a Jewish home. | '
But they're willing to give up their savings for 5 sets of linens, furniture sets that will soon be redundant, chandeliers and the like?
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crust
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:46 pm
| amother wrote: | | But they're willing to give up their savings for 5 sets of linens, furniture sets that will soon be redundant, chandeliers and the like? |
They share this belief/tradition that setting up a Jewish home is more important than all else so yes they are ready to give up from their savings for anything that will bring joy to the new couple.
I'm not sure this is something I can easily explain here.
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:47 pm
Can someone please tell me what professions the parents are in to pay for even a small percentage of these gifts?
There are some that look down at those who go to college, but this enabled ME to buy my husband his 18K watch before we were married and his silver menorah after several years of marriage. It allowed him to pay for my engagement ring, our household furnishings and of course, rent. I paid for my own sheital. Of course we got some wedding gifts, but a very few cost more than $100. Our linen was from a discount store (think $20 sheets sets.) And after several years of marriage, we purchased our own silverware.
If you are a multi-millionaire, go ahead and spoil your family. For everyone else, well you must be living on another planet.
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:50 pm
| crust wrote: | They share this belief/tradition that setting up a Jewish home is more important than all else so yes they are ready to give up from their savings for anything that will bring joy to the new couple.
I'm not sure this is something I can easily explain here. |
Oh, I totally understand the mindset. I'm from such a community. I'm just pointing out how that concept has devolved into absurdity.
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:51 pm
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And our good stroller that was used for all the kids cost $50 second hand
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amother
Lemon
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:53 pm
Im not sure where everyone is getting their numbers from. Its about 50,000 together both sides,not each side. (Which is still alot)
Most parents buy everything from the chassuna mall. In every circle there are those who feel they have to spend more. You can rent a gown for less you can rent for more. You can have one photographer or 3. You can have a one man band or a 3 or more band. You can buy two inexpensive sets of whatever is needed(dishes, pots, linen etc.) there are basics that are needed an iron hangers cups negel vasser etc. Do the math it adds up. Tnoim, aufruf,shevabrachos, shas menorah, esrig holder, machzorim invitations,and so on. We had chasana plans for two children. We have whole life insurance which allowed us to make bar mitzva
Our daughter recieved good quality bedroom and dining room sets. 10 years later she still has them in great condition. When something broke the company stood behind their product
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:58 pm
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May I ask u Lemon, iy"H when it is your daughter's turn to marry her children off, does she have 25K for each child (in today's money)?
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salamanca
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 7:59 pm
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If parents are giving up their life savings to marry off their kids, what are they retiring on?
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amother
Khaki
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:02 pm
| salamanca wrote: | | If parents are giving up their life savings to marry off their kids, what are they retiring on? |
Social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, and some work till they absolutely no longer can.
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amother
Lemon
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:12 pm
| amother wrote: | | May I ask u Lemon, iy"H when it is your daughter's turn to marry her children off, does she have 25K for each child (in today's money)? |
You may. All of our children have degrees and jobs bh. Our son in-law worked very hard at his job immediately after the wedding and recently built a business. Our son lived in a furnished basement and did not vaction or live large- he recently bought a house -again with a budget and nothing too big or glamorous. They all worked throughout their teen and college years (Touro and sara schenirer) yes we bucked the trend and did our job as parents and made sure they have parnasa in their hand
They were taught to save and not spend frivolously. In theory they should iyh be able to. Of course mentch tracht But everything is in the hands of Hashem.
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amother
Lemon
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Sun, Dec 23 2018, 8:16 pm
| salamanca wrote: | | If parents are giving up their life savings to marry off their kids, what are they retiring on? |
Many bought houses that today are worth close to a million in Brooklyn. My parents sold their house in 1981 for about 150,000 today that house is worth over a million. Had they but known what would happen. So therefore many remortgage. No not ideal either
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