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amother




Aubergine


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 6:25 pm
So I'm getting my tax return ready and reached out to my babysitter and kid's playgroup for their information. My babysitter said no problem, will give me more info in person, etc. My playgroup Morah though told me that her playgroup is not legal - she will be not reporting her income on her tax return. I'm kind of surprised and not sure if I should be doing something about this. For one thing, as far as I know it's illegal, which usually makes it halachically assur. Her father in law (and possibly her husband too) are Rabbis, involved in the community etc. so it's not like they're clueless. I know I've heard of people - specifically babysitters - who don't file, but it's really rubbing me the wrong way. She does a fantastic job as a playgroup Morah, my child really enjoys going, she has a lot of creative ideas, etc.
But I was raised to be meticulously honest with these types of things and while I know it's not always easy, you do it anyways. I'm trying to be dan likaf zechus and all but I'm wondering:
1. Should I say something to her? We were not communicating in person so I have not yet responded - should I?
2. Am I allowed to file it on my taxes even if she's not filing? Could that get her in trouble? If so, am I responsible if she gets in trouble? Not saying that I would file if it would get her in trouble, just wondering what my options are (it's not a big deal for this year because it's only been a few months but next year will be a bigger deal for me - like I would lose money because of it if I can't get that deduction)

What would you do?
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 6:26 pm
We have always asked upfront about thus. Know for the future.

If you do put it in be aware you can trigger an audit for her. I would ask a shayla.
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amother




Aubergine


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 6:37 pm
Thanks I was thinking of asking our Rav.
So you wouldn't send to someone who doesn't file? for hashkafic reasons or financial?
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 6:56 pm
You really need to make sure ahead of time, before you choose a childcare place. Legal playgroups are safer too since they are required to follow safety laws. Due diligence is for your own protection.
You should also have been receiving monthly receipts with the tax ID listed, not wait until tax time to find out that there is no legal entity name and no EIN #.
Just stay away from such places. Find a new place for your child that has insurance, the right teacher to child ratio, and safety parameters in place.
Leave her and leave her be. I don't suggest that you list her on your tax return. I also don't think you'll be able to, since in order to do so you'd need her personal SSN.
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amother




Ecru


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 7:04 pm
Technically, you can complete form 2441 and provide basic information about the provider: name, address...
You then need to attach a statement stating that your child care provider refused to furnish her ss/ein number.
This would be adequate for qualifying for the child care credit.
Personally, I wouldn’t do it, maybe ask a Rav.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 7:07 pm
amother wrote:
Thanks I was thinking of asking our Rav.
So you wouldn't send to someone who doesn't file? for hashkafic reasons or financial?

Both.

Your situation is a definite shayla. Try to ask a rav familiar with these situation.
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amother




Floralwhite


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 9:13 pm
OP, what exactly would you say to her? You didn't ask her ahead of time and her playgroup isn't legal. Many playgroups aren't legal. There's nothing to do at this point.
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amother




Ivory


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 9:23 pm
This has nothing to do with the playgroup being legal. I've sent to playgroups in basements with a 1:10 ratio (ie: 100% illegal) where the morah reported her income. I'm pretty sure you would need to provide her name, address, and SS# in order to file taxes anyway. Given that you don't know her social there really isn't much that you can do.
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amother




Ecru


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 9:28 pm
amother wrote:
This has nothing to do with the playgroup being legal. I've sent to playgroups in basements with a 1:10 ratio (ie: 100% illegal) where the morah reported her income. I'm pretty sure you would need to provide her name, address, and SS# in order to file taxes anyway. Given that you don't know her social there really isn't much that you can do.


This is inaccurate info-see my post above.

The illegality of the playgroup and the filing of taxes are separate issues.
The IRS does not govern over the licensing of playgroups.
It’s your job as a parent to inquire as to the legality of the playgroup before registering a child, if it concerns you.
Whether or not the playgroup teacher is filing taxes is none of anyone’s business and does not affect a taxpayer’s qualification for the child care credit.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:12 pm
amother wrote:
This is inaccurate info-see my post above.

The illegality of the playgroup and the filing of taxes are separate issues.
The IRS does not govern over the licensing of playgroups.
It’s your job as a parent to inquire as to the legality of the playgroup before registering a child, if it concerns you.
Whether or not the playgroup teacher is filing taxes is none of anyone’s business and does not affect a taxpayer’s qualification for the child care credit.


Re your last paragraph, it may not be my business but of course it effects qualification for child care credit. From the numerous times I ever asked, I have never once met someone who runs an illegal/not licensed playgroup/babysitting service who was willing to give me her ss# or anything else necessary to claim the child care on my taxes (or for reimbursement from my dependant care account). Practically speaking, I think you need to give up on it now and if it’s important to you for the future, make sure to send somewhere licensed...
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amother




Ecru


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:20 pm
Amother seagreen, it does not impact your qualification.
As I said upthread, all you need to do is furnish the child care provider’s name and address and attach a statement to form 2441 stating that you were unable to obtain the provider’s ss#.
The issue is more halachic-would this statement make you a moser?
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amother




Ecru


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:33 pm
Apparently, the IRS is very aware that there are illegal child care centers.
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amother




Ivory


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:49 pm
amother wrote:
This is inaccurate info-see my post above.

The illegality of the playgroup and the filing of taxes are separate issues.
The IRS does not govern over the licensing of playgroups.
It’s your job as a parent to inquire as to the legality of the playgroup before registering a child, if it concerns you.
Whether or not the playgroup teacher is filing taxes is none of anyone’s business and does not affect a taxpayer’s qualification for the child care credit.


The taxpayer may qualify for childcare credit but can't apply for it without a SS#.
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amother




Seashell


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:51 pm
amother wrote:
Technically, you can complete form 2441 and provide basic information about the provider: name, address...
You then need to attach a statement stating that your child care provider refused to furnish her ss/ein number.
This would be adequate for qualifying for the child care credit.
Personally, I wouldn’t do it, maybe ask a Rav.


This. I’m an accountant.

Consider if the money you paid for the play group would make a difference for you on your tax return. If it doesn’t, I wouldn’t file with it.

I wouldn’t continue to use her but I wouldn’t speak with her without speaking to your rav first. Tax evasion is a crime and if you have state or city taxes it’s compounded. If you know about it because she’s stated that then you should stay away.
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justforfun87




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 10:59 pm
In Baltimore the MAJORITY of playgroups/camps I sent to do not file or give out their info.
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amother




Black


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:07 pm
Ive sent to someone in monse who is 100% legal, has routine inspections, the whole deal-but she wouldnt give me a tax id because of how she pays her employees or something like that, dont remember exactly
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amother




Wheat


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:10 pm
As jews we are not allowed to masser on each other. What will you have from reporting her? No one is in danger and shes not hurting anyone. Its not in your place to report her.
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sky




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:12 pm
Most likely if she was claiming her full income (she probably is claiming part of it) she would be charging way more. Would you be willing to pay the difference - maybe you should offer to give her that?

(Most Norah’s I’ve sent too have given me their social security number - I choose my Norah’s for other qualities so it was never a deal breaker for me)

You really can’t put her down if you don’t have her social security number and I think it is wrong to anyways if she says no. I’m guessing you knew the playgroup want legal to begin with.
Maybe you are being wrong sending to an illegal daycare and someone should report on you to the government that you aren’t sending to a legal place (if it isn’t) - not really but no one is perfect.
How much are you paying an illegal playgroup? I find I pay mine a fraction of what I would pay elsewhere.

Do you give your cleaning lady (if you have) tax forms?


Last edited by sky on Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Lemon


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:13 pm
amother wrote:
As jews we age not allowed to masser on each other. What will you have from reporting her? No one is in danger and shes not hurting anyone. Its not in your place to report her.


She never suggested reporting her.
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amother




Burgundy


Post  Wed, Jan 23 2019, 11:15 pm
amother wrote:
She never suggested reporting her.
in #2 she clearly said it.
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